http://www.phpthewrongway.com

I am not a php dev but I really like the following statement:

In the software industry you can compare a pre-built house to a general purpose framework. Building software using general purpose frameworks doesn’t make you a coder or a programmer any more than putting together a pre-built house makes you a carpenter.

Building software using general purpose frameworks doesn’t make you a coder or a programmer - this is just bullshit.... What should a user of a framework making something for his users using programming/scripting language call himself? Pokemon?

It's not like you can tell framework - framework.build_me_software_cuz_im_coder()

You don't need to be a carpenter to build a house. Did I miss the point?! 😉

@KeyWeeUsr I think the author meant when we simply depend on the framework for everything without realizing the underlying principles of the language

@coookie Still it's way more shittier than probably the author meant it. Every programming language can be basically named a framework, you can't just play with current(hw) only because you'd build nothing.

In O-S communities there's a popular saying: "Don't reinvent the wheel, unless you plan on learning more," therefore if a coder/programmer doesn't feel e.g. contributing into the language/technology itself, there's no point in reinventing it (and throw away precious time).

@KeyWeeUsr "Don't reinvent the wheel if you don't want to learn more", I think that's precisely what the author meant, and I too believe in it more than anything.

Use frameworks, don't reinvent the wheel, but please do know what's happening under the hood.

@coookie Still a little bit off wording, but I agree. Of course, knowing priciples of how/for what was a thing made will be useful if you use the thing, but authors statement may be simplified with this: You aren't a cook if you can't make a knife/spoon/...
It wouldn't even matter to me if it wasn't on a website a lot of beginners may visit as a source of knowledge, which may result in a lot of new idiots ranting how he or she isn't a proper coder because (s)he uses a framework. ^^

@KeyWeeUsr In that case I wish to add what the author said on his post:

Many of todays programmers completely ignore the fundamental principles of sound programming and they spend huge amount of time fantasying new layers of complexity in order to appear more clever, more cool, and more acceptable by whomever they regard as their peers.

@KeyWeeUsr Plus, he is talking in context of PHP. And he explains the need for frameworks in languages like Python and Ruby because they don't target web specifically, but PHP is different, it's made for web. And I think this is why he advocates not being pressured or thinking of using a web framework as a pre requisite to success

@coookie "Many of todays..." Totally agree, just look at all new <capital char><ascii char> or <some>Script, or even <char>ython. Of course all of them may have a use case(a lot of python-ones do), but if there was a lang that is low-level and at the same time could be high-level with e.g. packages, still a man who doesn't like <thing> from the lang would create a new one, just because he can. It's not bad, just the pace is fast. And creating such a language would sooner or later result in OS.

@coookie It was made for web, surely, but it has holes and corners which a framework will handle. Some cases may be weird to understand(or solve), therefore time-consuming and in the end it wouldn't help a user that much.

Also, Python and such.. you can run them on a server and work even without frameworks, it's not so hard and you don't need them necessarily, but obviously you will use them if you can.

@KeyWeeUsr Again, nothing against frameworks, I wouldn't build something without it.

@coookie Sorry, I like to talk (about these things) ^^

@KeyWeeUsr No reason at all to apologize. I am glad we talked!

@coookie thanks for sharing, interesting read