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@Fast-Nop SJW's are the real problematic culture in enterprise corporations
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@urzq I guess you could say not wanting politics in something is political.
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@urzq It's insulting to make it seem like they're being hired for diversity numbers and not their skill. (I've heard this from many minorities and females in tech.)
I'm no minority, but that would piss me the fuck off. -
@monzrmango I will certainly do, I will give it a shot and make a company without all those dumb politics.
@urzq the CoC is what I call "soft bigotry" that implies that being white and male gives people a higher status than me and I cant compete without a helping hand. In my experience its not the way to do things, blind meritocrcy is, doesnt matter who you are but what you do.
I find the CoC discriminating in the basis of race and gender. "Positive" discrimination is still discrimination. -
@monzrmango there may not be enough time for that. The US universities spit out such delusional spoiled brats en masse, and if they now destroy the one thing the US still have going strong, i.e. tech, then the world won't wait until the US have recovered. The US empire is already in decline anyway.
@urzq the anti-meritocratic spin came exactly from these CoC loonies. -
@Fast-Nop Idk man. Everyone acts like all the college students in the US are whiny and soft brats, but from my experience (at a known party university) the majority are just trying to live life normally and don't give a flying fuck about the social issues shit that the stereotypical college student whines about
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@AndSoWeCode Just gonna be honest with ya chief... I don't care.
Im just answering the dude's question of why the CoC is insulting to minorities, and that's that. -
@urzq I highly doubt it, living in a first world country is surely an improvement tho.
@AndSoWeCode yes I read it all, my conflict is how broad it is and the political bias it has, meritocracy isn't by definition what you say it is, that's authority abuse and it's totally different. And please point me to the sources you use to base that meritocracy is an umbrella term for "discrimination", I hope it isn't as retarded as the one in the article.
Seeing as words on an open source trigger you, like canonical, straight up show me you think diversity only comes from physical attributes, which are the most irrelevant attributes that matter when making a "diverse" team. I say let them show me what they can do and if they don't fit the bill because they lack the skill, boot them out, period. -
@Stuxnet unfortunately that way of thinking is spreading
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@Kaji The current state of politics is full of double standards and the sheepish ideology of "my way or no way" when it comes to thinking.
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I think they've become the new Gestapo, those feminazis. All of those companies are probably just bending for it in fear. Recently I went to a close by store and saw 2 fat women with blue hair at the entrance.. I was genuinely afraid. Back then it was a war on Jews, now it's apparently a war on white cis males 😕
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@irene It was founded by Eich after he was fucked over by the Mozilla Executive Mob.
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https://theatlantic.com/business/...
now, reading this I feel like they spot the problem, and tried to give a solution.
they are saying that "meritocracy WOULD be great if managers and HR were meritocratic. But managers have shown to favorite person like them, so all this meritocracy thing ends up be a shitty excuse."
I think that this is true, good managers are rare, and measuring quality of workers is really hard ( it's not like counting lines of code written every month)
how to solve this problem?
well, I would say "fuck managers" but I guess this is not how things work.
they are saying that a way to solve this problem is balancing the natural propension of managers to prefer people like them.
may this work? I doubt.
did "listening to managers" worked? rarely. -
@irene it's made by Eich. Personally I quite like the shields in it.. most of the common stuff that normally I'd add into Firefox as add-ons, the Shields cover for me.. including on Android. And it's using Chrome's engine (can't remember what it's called) over Gecko, which IMO is a huge plus. It doesn't have the maturity of the other browsers yet, but overall I'm a happy Brave user here 🙂
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@irene "feature" 😜
Consider filing a bug report! Brave is only a few months old, so there's that.. I guess it's to be expected. -
The article actually states a good point:
"I personally long for a word that conveys a person’s ability to demonstrate competence and expertise and commitment separate from job title, or college degree, or management hierarchy, and to be evaluated fairly by one’s peers. I long for a word that makes it clear that each individual who shares our mission is welcome, and valued, and will get a fair deal at Mozilla – that they will be recognized and celebrated for their contributions without regard to other factors.
Sadly, “meritocracy” is not that word. Maybe it once was, or could have been. But not today. The challenge is not to retain a word that has become tainted. "
So tl;Dr: they want to continue to recognize everyones contribution without regards to other factors. But because SJWs attacked the word Meritocracy, they will have to change the wording. That's all.
Isn't that exactly what you all want? -
@irene or maybe, just maybe, they just wrote that to please SJWs and won't change anything? After all, not all people are evil.
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@irene should have written "stop further attacks from" instead of "please"
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@jaytar I truly hope that that's the case.. but every little step that's taken to erode the freedom of speech is a bad one IMO, regardless of Mozilla's intent. I use the word meritocracy with pride, because merit is all I care about. Whether you're black, white, yellow, gay, cis, bi, right, left or anything in between, I don't care. Even if you're a neonazi who's coding shit in their underwear while wanking on necrophilic porn, as long as your code isn't shit, all is good. Meritocracy, it's so inclusive yet it's depicted by those lunatics as if it isn't. Meritocracy is the right way to go in programming. Those lunatics, if they find it offensive I'll say it right into their face. MERITOCRACY IT IS!!!
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@irene Ideally, yes. But they have a lot of possibilities to hurt a big organisation like Mozilla, and they have to deal with this someway.
If they don't, they will soon find a metric crap ton of articles stating that everyone using Firefox is racist. And a lot of people will believe this, since people are stupid. Then organisations will stop contributing and the whole project goes down the shitter.
If they can prevent this by changing a few words in their policies, hell yes. -
@jaytar I can see your point.. Mozilla's got a lot to lose, and they've got even more out there that's waiting to be exploited by those who don't have anything better to do. But the issue is.. bending towards them is only a short-term solution, while also being a long-term problem catalyst. It's a vicious cycle essentially.. with 1° intervals they erode freedom of speech, and whenever you start to realize that things are getting hot, most options will already be gone. That's why this is such a huge problem.. it may not seem like one, but this status quo is bad.. and if those SJW's are gonna get it their way, things will get progressively worse.
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Could someone please enlighten me on what is so bad about the article?
All I get from it is: "We won't use the word meritocracy anymore because it's meaning has been tainted."
I'm certainly against the way sjw are trying to "solve" discrimination. I actually believe it furthers it.
But what exactly is wrong about this blog entry? -
@TheSilent
"this concept was practiced in a world characterized by both hidden bias and outright abuse"
Does calling out code commits as shit qualify as abusive? Sure it's offensive to the hard work you've put in, but whenever I choose to commit a piece of code to a bigger project, I expect it to be called out as such.. for me to improve upon.. hopefully with some guidance as to what is wrong with my code. And hopefully it'll be merged, but that isn't the expectation.
That's the big problem.. for years, even in my childhood, there's been this thing of "everyone's a winner", which was the start of the erosion of merit, and determination. If you're going to win anyway, how useful is merit really? And now it's turned into a bad thing, where bad code should be welcomed under the banner of inclusion. But if you don't share the political beliefs of the maintainers!!!! Oh dear..
Fuck that. -
@irene Thank you very much, now I have a clearer idea where all the hate is coming from.
But I also understand why Mozilla is trying to dodge the backlash a direct attack against certain groups would imply.
The swjs use a totally new form of warfare by directly attacking the language with which we communicate and using social media and provocations to rapidly spread their believes. This is something new and fighting back against it is actually not an easy task. -
@Condor Just to check if I understand you correctly. Your criticism is that they gave in to the meaning of meritocracy beeing bended by certain groups?
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@jaytar you cannot stop attacks from SJWs by giving in to them. On the contrary, that only reassures them that they have found a vulnerable target, i.e. prey. Apologising is a mistake, too, because they will not calm down. Instead, they will take the apology as admission of guilt and ramp up their attacks. You cannot compromise with them because they don't know what "compromise" means. All they see is the weakness of giving in even one inch to them.
These people are not civilised, rational folks. You cannot discuss with them, you cannot negotiate with them. There is one and only one good answer when dealing with SJWs, and that is "get off my lawn and go fuck yourselves". -
@TheSilent exactly. It seems to be a solution in the short term (satisfying the SJW's) but it's extremely damaging in the long term.
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@AndSoWeCode oh man you are edgy and dense thinking you know what drives 7+ billion people in such plain terms.
Prejudice exists, but if words hurt you, specially not offensive terms, no one is making you contribute to any open source project and I doubt you should.
You said it, no one is special, we are all animals, we compete to advance and survive, your generation has just been too pampered. -
@irene Brave is very good you should try it out, it has an adblock by default
@mngr sure dude, read the source where they take managers help people that look like them, it's biased and flawed af. Also what the fuck does meritocracy have to do with it, it's a term and the right term to solve things.
Meritocracy is by definition unbiased, so if anything we should look to increase it not erase it.
@jaytar implementation is far from the original intention tho, removing meritocracy is very retarded for the reasons I've explained above. You don't please SJW's they always want more, that's something corporations don't get.
@Condor this, merit has been undermined and as someone who has have to fight for almost everything I've got, even my health and body it's outright enraging to see this articles.
Don't mind they don't cite the source where they say there's bias and abuse in the workplace, fucking pampered child that just notice not everyone is a winner and want to pull us all down. -
@Fast-Nop this 100%
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@AndSoWeCode "let's ban the word that oughta solve it" yeah I'm the dense motha fucker.
Of course you are older than me, you are a millennial, it oozes out of your rhetoric.
I've never seen "merit" being a shield to discrimination, I've seen it trashed for mediocrity tho. Trashing objectivity because there is no "true" 100% objectivity is stupid, amazingly stupid.
Not telling you what to do, just noting that your sensible buttcheeks don't seem to handle mean words, competition or assholes so entering a community like FOSS might be too overwhelming. And yes I'm a little shit, asshole, whatever, I'm Mexican ;) -
@AndSoWeCode totally missed @irene 's point. I'm not the one screaming idiot, you have no points, provided no resources or facts so yeah. At least point me to an example of people using merit to do that, even then you would be wrong on generalizing but at least you would have something.
As you say, react to the real world not what your twisted ideology wants you to think is the real world and if you see a shitty situation use your head to fix shit not erase words.
Btw, try and be more creative with your insults it kinda shows you've never had to banter for your life. -
@irene I would strongly recommend Vivaldi anyway. I don't use Brave. Simply suggested that it as an example of more than one alternative to the Firefox/Chrome monopoly.
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@irene seems like you are more interested in the kind of use cases I don't care about at all 😂 disregard my suggestion 😊
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@AndSoWeCode hey I'm not the one screaming retard, I haven't flung insults and I'm a "kid" as you put it so that doesn't talk good about you Mr adult.
Please point us to an example where removing words or concepts from society has benefited society and diminished discrimination, no Nazi book burning doesn't count :)
@monzrmango dude not worth trying discussing just let him present his facts -
@AndSoWeCode pfft hey kid, calm your titties I work, freelance and study while advancing personal projects all the while living in one of the most violent cities in the world so go suck on your wife's dick if you think I got it better cus you obviously don't know hardship if you think working and studying is hard, not surprising as seeing your skills on devrant are so limited after being such a successful adult who has already graduated; so as any white girl would say, bitch please.
And now if you read carefully to what I wrote earlier I use no insults not did I intended to, you felt insulted by the insipid generation thing, other than this comment that is totally offensive.
You are so dumb you misunderstood what @irene said and so so brainless as to write several text walls on devrant, this is a stupid place to get mad about rants, please try to survive on a hood and come back when your balls have dropped.
No more comments ;* -
@AndSoWeCode You also linked unrelated articles like the social support one which has nothing to do with removing words from guidelines, like merit.
Now I'll certainly do "my research"😂 -
@irene I think he means the CoC was created to give minorities the special treatment he perceives the majority has (probably white males in IT).
But hey that's just a theory! An NPC theory! See you on the next one.
No but seriously I wouldn't take it to heart, some people do believe it. -
@irene totally agree with no politics in tech but the harmful thing believing it's not harmful not making it less harmful but totally still harmful bit was my favorite bit.
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@AndSoWeCode how is the Wikipedia link to impostor syndrome of all things related to this CoC? As far as I know, impostor syndrome is being in a certain field and believing that you're not qualified to be in it. Like SJW's in tech, except that it wouldn't be impostor syndrome there because that's just a mindset. For the SJW's, that's fucking reality. They do not belong in tech.
Also insulting your peers is so mature!! You must be such a wise person. Please teach me your "life experience" sir. -
@irene "even if someone thinks something harmful is benign, it doesn't make it so" not a native speaker per se BUT that's how I'd say it, I did like it tho I thought it was intentional 😂
What's your native tongue? -
@irene oh the motherland, that's awesome +10 respects as long as you don't spray chlorine in manspreaders 😆😂
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@irene Tesla towers are bad ass, they always get the girls.
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@irene 😂😂 I can't even
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@AndSoWeCode freedom of speech is an amazing thing. Unfortunately however that doesn't mean that being what I'd call an asshole is to be tolerated. Throwing insults at "disrespectful brats" just because they disagree with your views from countless years of "life experience", how low and despicable.
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@irene same thing with Pie nowadays unfortunately.. used to be a Paranoid Android feature (which is all I care about when it comes to Pie really) but then you've got the shitflood of Android Pie, new exciting operating system name!!! Fuck that. Heck, the Easter egg isn't good, the UI kinda sucks, material design has gone down the shitter, etc etc.. give me my Paranoid Pie back already Google 😡
And just realized how much I digressed 😛 sorry about that. Definitely more interesting than SJW issues though I'd say.. but it's not like that's very hard anyway 🙃 -
So the common denominator here appears to be "noone likes SJWs".
For the rest, I tend to agree with @AndSoWeCode, minus the insults.
Removing words can help. My grandparents for example always use the word "nigger" because when they grew up, it was not neccessarily derogatory. People felt offended and society agreed to use a different word like "Black People" or "People of Color". Nothing wrong about that.
If meritocracy has created some bad behavior from people in the past (like lowering the probability of accepting pull requests from female nicknames), why not get rid of those associations by using a different word and keeping the original idea ? -
@irene Read for example
https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/...
Tl;dr : pull requests from women are actually more likely to be accepted overall, probabaly because of higher self-selection. But when the nickname is obviously female, the probability falls significantly below the one for men.
Meritocracy itself has nothing to do with sexism. But the current execution is flawed, because humans make errors. -
@irene Yes, that's definitely true - however, since a lot of people oppose the idea presented in the study, I would have expected articles pointing out flaws in the method or a study stating the opposite. The fact that I can't find such articles makes me tend to believe the results. Which makes me worry.
After all, this is the scientific method. If you want to prove someones results wrong, find proof for that. -
@irene which explains the higher success rate for women in general (and is exactly what I meant by self selection). But what about the other side, the lower success rate for female nicknames?
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@AndSoWeCode
> calling me and SJW LOL.
> Still advocating for speech policing
> "Tell me that when you have to work after school for shitty internet"
> Implying working and studying is a hardship
> ....Y-you are misconstruing my argument
> Trying to explain @irene she doesn't know what a snowflake is
> While advocating for snowflakes
You must drink a special kind of soy to be so far your own ass. But that's it, I won't argue with someone who deletes his comments as he obviously can't back up what he says or has the balls to stand by the insults he throws, which are as childish as your temperament.
@Condor not worth it man we've lost him into his own ideology.
@jaytar correlation vs causation, has anyone bothered to see why they were rejected on a per case basis? Or as re they just misused statistics to push an agenda? I've read it, looks like the latter. -
@jaytar I've found proof of "scientific" publications publishing articles without verifying, redacting or fact checking them just because they fit their political agenda.
https://youtu.be/kVk9a5Jcd1k
So it's not as much about disproving the scientific method, just proving they don't follow it. -
@JKyll : Hear, hear!
I am currently quite happy with the Falkon browser. ( https://www.falkon.org/ )
However, here is a little story from my work:
I asked a coworker of mine (engineer, female, she's brillant and simply was the best applicant for the job) how she would feel if she got a job because she was female.
Her answer was most telling: "If I got a job out of some obscure quota or by positive discrimination, I'd ask them to call me when they want to hire me because of my actual skill. Then I'd leave."
Morale: Positive Discrimination is still Discrimination. -
@irene it is quite scary because those papers have huge impact on media and in turn society
Yeah Mozilla fuck merit and fuck you too!
This, this is what I was talking about when the fucking CoC came out and everyone (including it's author) started it using it as a political weapon.
You castrated fucking virgins! Mozilla, I want to support you I really don't like chrome but you always manage to disappoint everyone. I'm tired, tired of you morally superior socialists infecting my fucking workplace, entertainment and news.
This is just an excuse for lazy assholes to have their cake and eat it too and it's damn fucking INSULTING to us "minorities", I can work to get nice things just like anyone else bitch! having another skin color is not a disability!
Worst of all, you seem to have straight out millennial retards making these decisions seeing as it's based on an article from a washed up "gender research" professor that thinks Barbie Doctor is problematic, the most biased and dumb source you can possibly pull out of your ass.
Two classmates were murdered this morning, do you really think we care about what your diversity and inclusion Dept thinks it's problematic? You delusional halfwits, the only comforting thought is that your soft bigotry will perish alongside your product when it inevitably diminishes it's quality for sake of "equality".
Want to make better products? Ditch your useless diversity and inclusion department and start optimizing the memory consumption on firefox.
Want to help minorities? Start paying your outsourced developers decently.
I hope this helps people who thought including politics in software development wouldn't have dire consecuences to open their eyes; if not, oh well I guess people will get it when mozilla keeps going down the drain and they get fired because they just outsourced their work in the name of "diversity" just to save money.
https://blog.mozilla.org/inclusion/...
rant
coc
sjws at it again
politics in development
mozilla
ffs