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@Fast-Nop SJW's are the real problematic culture in enterprise corporations
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@urzq I guess you could say not wanting politics in something is political.
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@urzq It's insulting to make it seem like they're being hired for diversity numbers and not their skill. (I've heard this from many minorities and females in tech.)
I'm no minority, but that would piss me the fuck off. -
@monzrmango I will certainly do, I will give it a shot and make a company without all those dumb politics.
@urzq the CoC is what I call "soft bigotry" that implies that being white and male gives people a higher status than me and I cant compete without a helping hand. In my experience its not the way to do things, blind meritocrcy is, doesnt matter who you are but what you do.
I find the CoC discriminating in the basis of race and gender. "Positive" discrimination is still discrimination. -
@monzrmango there may not be enough time for that. The US universities spit out such delusional spoiled brats en masse, and if they now destroy the one thing the US still have going strong, i.e. tech, then the world won't wait until the US have recovered. The US empire is already in decline anyway.
@urzq the anti-meritocratic spin came exactly from these CoC loonies. -
@Fast-Nop Idk man. Everyone acts like all the college students in the US are whiny and soft brats, but from my experience (at a known party university) the majority are just trying to live life normally and don't give a flying fuck about the social issues shit that the stereotypical college student whines about
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@AndSoWeCode
Oh, so you want to give HR departments more power then to fuck dev teams over some more. Gotcha. -
@AndSoWeCode Just gonna be honest with ya chief... I don't care.
Im just answering the dude's question of why the CoC is insulting to minorities, and that's that. -
@urzq I highly doubt it, living in a first world country is surely an improvement tho.
@AndSoWeCode yes I read it all, my conflict is how broad it is and the political bias it has, meritocracy isn't by definition what you say it is, that's authority abuse and it's totally different. And please point me to the sources you use to base that meritocracy is an umbrella term for "discrimination", I hope it isn't as retarded as the one in the article.
Seeing as words on an open source trigger you, like canonical, straight up show me you think diversity only comes from physical attributes, which are the most irrelevant attributes that matter when making a "diverse" team. I say let them show me what they can do and if they don't fit the bill because they lack the skill, boot them out, period. -
@Stuxnet unfortunately that way of thinking is spreading
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@Kaji The current state of politics is full of double standards and the sheepish ideology of "my way or no way" when it comes to thinking.
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I think they've become the new Gestapo, those feminazis. All of those companies are probably just bending for it in fear. Recently I went to a close by store and saw 2 fat women with blue hair at the entrance.. I was genuinely afraid. Back then it was a war on Jews, now it's apparently a war on white cis males 😕
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@irene It was founded by Eich after he was fucked over by the Mozilla Executive Mob.
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https://theatlantic.com/business/...
now, reading this I feel like they spot the problem, and tried to give a solution.
they are saying that "meritocracy WOULD be great if managers and HR were meritocratic. But managers have shown to favorite person like them, so all this meritocracy thing ends up be a shitty excuse."
I think that this is true, good managers are rare, and measuring quality of workers is really hard ( it's not like counting lines of code written every month)
how to solve this problem?
well, I would say "fuck managers" but I guess this is not how things work.
they are saying that a way to solve this problem is balancing the natural propension of managers to prefer people like them.
may this work? I doubt.
did "listening to managers" worked? rarely. -
@irene it's made by Eich. Personally I quite like the shields in it.. most of the common stuff that normally I'd add into Firefox as add-ons, the Shields cover for me.. including on Android. And it's using Chrome's engine (can't remember what it's called) over Gecko, which IMO is a huge plus. It doesn't have the maturity of the other browsers yet, but overall I'm a happy Brave user here 🙂
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@irene "feature" 😜
Consider filing a bug report! Brave is only a few months old, so there's that.. I guess it's to be expected. -
The article actually states a good point:
"I personally long for a word that conveys a person’s ability to demonstrate competence and expertise and commitment separate from job title, or college degree, or management hierarchy, and to be evaluated fairly by one’s peers. I long for a word that makes it clear that each individual who shares our mission is welcome, and valued, and will get a fair deal at Mozilla – that they will be recognized and celebrated for their contributions without regard to other factors.
Sadly, “meritocracy” is not that word. Maybe it once was, or could have been. But not today. The challenge is not to retain a word that has become tainted. "
So tl;Dr: they want to continue to recognize everyones contribution without regards to other factors. But because SJWs attacked the word Meritocracy, they will have to change the wording. That's all.
Isn't that exactly what you all want? -
@irene or maybe, just maybe, they just wrote that to please SJWs and won't change anything? After all, not all people are evil.
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@irene should have written "stop further attacks from" instead of "please"
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@jaytar I truly hope that that's the case.. but every little step that's taken to erode the freedom of speech is a bad one IMO, regardless of Mozilla's intent. I use the word meritocracy with pride, because merit is all I care about. Whether you're black, white, yellow, gay, cis, bi, right, left or anything in between, I don't care. Even if you're a neonazi who's coding shit in their underwear while wanking on necrophilic porn, as long as your code isn't shit, all is good. Meritocracy, it's so inclusive yet it's depicted by those lunatics as if it isn't. Meritocracy is the right way to go in programming. Those lunatics, if they find it offensive I'll say it right into their face. MERITOCRACY IT IS!!!
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@irene Ideally, yes. But they have a lot of possibilities to hurt a big organisation like Mozilla, and they have to deal with this someway.
If they don't, they will soon find a metric crap ton of articles stating that everyone using Firefox is racist. And a lot of people will believe this, since people are stupid. Then organisations will stop contributing and the whole project goes down the shitter.
If they can prevent this by changing a few words in their policies, hell yes. -
@jaytar I can see your point.. Mozilla's got a lot to lose, and they've got even more out there that's waiting to be exploited by those who don't have anything better to do. But the issue is.. bending towards them is only a short-term solution, while also being a long-term problem catalyst. It's a vicious cycle essentially.. with 1° intervals they erode freedom of speech, and whenever you start to realize that things are getting hot, most options will already be gone. That's why this is such a huge problem.. it may not seem like one, but this status quo is bad.. and if those SJW's are gonna get it their way, things will get progressively worse.
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Could someone please enlighten me on what is so bad about the article?
All I get from it is: "We won't use the word meritocracy anymore because it's meaning has been tainted."
I'm certainly against the way sjw are trying to "solve" discrimination. I actually believe it furthers it.
But what exactly is wrong about this blog entry? -
@TheSilent
"this concept was practiced in a world characterized by both hidden bias and outright abuse"
Does calling out code commits as shit qualify as abusive? Sure it's offensive to the hard work you've put in, but whenever I choose to commit a piece of code to a bigger project, I expect it to be called out as such.. for me to improve upon.. hopefully with some guidance as to what is wrong with my code. And hopefully it'll be merged, but that isn't the expectation.
That's the big problem.. for years, even in my childhood, there's been this thing of "everyone's a winner", which was the start of the erosion of merit, and determination. If you're going to win anyway, how useful is merit really? And now it's turned into a bad thing, where bad code should be welcomed under the banner of inclusion. But if you don't share the political beliefs of the maintainers!!!! Oh dear..
Fuck that. -
@irene Thank you very much, now I have a clearer idea where all the hate is coming from.
But I also understand why Mozilla is trying to dodge the backlash a direct attack against certain groups would imply.
The swjs use a totally new form of warfare by directly attacking the language with which we communicate and using social media and provocations to rapidly spread their believes. This is something new and fighting back against it is actually not an easy task. -
@Condor Just to check if I understand you correctly. Your criticism is that they gave in to the meaning of meritocracy beeing bended by certain groups?
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@jaytar you cannot stop attacks from SJWs by giving in to them. On the contrary, that only reassures them that they have found a vulnerable target, i.e. prey. Apologising is a mistake, too, because they will not calm down. Instead, they will take the apology as admission of guilt and ramp up their attacks. You cannot compromise with them because they don't know what "compromise" means. All they see is the weakness of giving in even one inch to them.
These people are not civilised, rational folks. You cannot discuss with them, you cannot negotiate with them. There is one and only one good answer when dealing with SJWs, and that is "get off my lawn and go fuck yourselves". -
@TheSilent exactly. It seems to be a solution in the short term (satisfying the SJW's) but it's extremely damaging in the long term.
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@monzrmango the world doesn't revolve around a single dev. It's capitalism. You produce - you eat. A company works better with a better team. HR just handles the paperwork, the team lead is supposed to fire assholes that drag the team down with their ego.
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@JKyll you misconstrue my point. Lay down your arms and try to understand:
You are not special.
You are an intelligent ape, from the genus Homo, of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Just like every single of the 7+ billion other people on the planet.
We're all guided by the same stuff - a mix of emotion, bias, prejudice, and a bit of intellect. Don't believe me? Ask Robert Sapolsky, Sam Harris, Daniel Kahneman, etc.
I stated clear facts: prejudice exists. Authoritarianism in ungoverned communities exist. Good programmers, good projects and good funding has left, because they were being ostracised for no good reason, just to stroke the ego of sociopaths. I didn't say I had anything to do with it. I just state the plain facts. Learn to separate facts from emotionally challenge interpretations. -
@AndSoWeCode oh man you are edgy and dense thinking you know what drives 7+ billion people in such plain terms.
Prejudice exists, but if words hurt you, specially not offensive terms, no one is making you contribute to any open source project and I doubt you should.
You said it, no one is special, we are all animals, we compete to advance and survive, your generation has just been too pampered. -
@irene Brave is very good you should try it out, it has an adblock by default
@mngr sure dude, read the source where they take managers help people that look like them, it's biased and flawed af. Also what the fuck does meritocracy have to do with it, it's a term and the right term to solve things.
Meritocracy is by definition unbiased, so if anything we should look to increase it not erase it.
@jaytar implementation is far from the original intention tho, removing meritocracy is very retarded for the reasons I've explained above. You don't please SJW's they always want more, that's something corporations don't get.
@Condor this, merit has been undermined and as someone who has have to fight for almost everything I've got, even my health and body it's outright enraging to see this articles.
Don't mind they don't cite the source where they say there's bias and abuse in the workplace, fucking pampered child that just notice not everyone is a winner and want to pull us all down. -
@Fast-Nop this 100%
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@JKyll how can I get this through your dense, politically tainted, polarized skull?
I'm probably older than you, and truly believe that people should get what they deserve, so your entire premise about me is your own invention. Stop it.
The 7 billion people reference was to indicate that you are not exempt from general rules about how people tend to behave. You are not superhuman, nor is the developer community. It is foolish to imply that those people are objective. Extremely foolish. I thought Daniel Kahneman obliterated the idea of objectivity decades ago, but apparently no.
You say "meritocracy" as a shield. NOBODY said anything AGAINST what "meritocracy" means. What is it going against, is that assholes are using this word as an umbrella, a shield, to cover from the simple truth: They're assholes to other people.
And, "no one is making you contribute to any open source project and I doubt you should." - who the fuck are you to tell me what to do, you little shit?
Canonical too? -
@AndSoWeCode "let's ban the word that oughta solve it" yeah I'm the dense motha fucker.
Of course you are older than me, you are a millennial, it oozes out of your rhetoric.
I've never seen "merit" being a shield to discrimination, I've seen it trashed for mediocrity tho. Trashing objectivity because there is no "true" 100% objectivity is stupid, amazingly stupid.
Not telling you what to do, just noting that your sensible buttcheeks don't seem to handle mean words, competition or assholes so entering a community like FOSS might be too overwhelming. And yes I'm a little shit, asshole, whatever, I'm Mexican ;) -
@JKyll because you're blind. People are using merit (to be read as authority) to be assholes to other people, who have something good to contribute.
And you're an idiot, because any argument bounces off your dense head. Instead of addressing my points, you went on throwing invented labels at me. Idiot. -
@irene you are absolutely right.
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@AndSoWeCode totally missed @irene 's point. I'm not the one screaming idiot, you have no points, provided no resources or facts so yeah. At least point me to an example of people using merit to do that, even then you would be wrong on generalizing but at least you would have something.
As you say, react to the real world not what your twisted ideology wants you to think is the real world and if you see a shitty situation use your head to fix shit not erase words.
Btw, try and be more creative with your insults it kinda shows you've never had to banter for your life. -
@irene I would strongly recommend Vivaldi anyway. I don't use Brave. Simply suggested that it as an example of more than one alternative to the Firefox/Chrome monopoly.
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@irene seems like you are more interested in the kind of use cases I don't care about at all 😂 disregard my suggestion 😊
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@AndSoWeCode
Your outburst is a good indicator on why the CoC, or any of it's derivatives in the future, is going to fail. At it's core, it's a good concept: people being civil to each other and maintaining a professional attitude to fellow colleagues' works. But it also happens to be flawed because it requires a committee to oversee the behavior of a group of individuals, and then enforcing only 'approved behaviors.' This committee will also need to be ran by people such as yourself, AND only include people such as you that abides in the same mandatory groupthink.
Do you see the problem here? People with a HUGE chip on their shoulders are going to be the most likely group vying to be in that seat of power. People who have no talent whatsoever, will also be excluding the same intelligent & talented people that you so claim were also excluded due to 'authoritarians' using Meritocracy as a shield for their assholery. It's better to have no CoC than have one at all. -
@irene "and that's why "snowflakes" do not deserve any special treatment anywhere." - nobody said they did. The thing is that what you call "snowflakes" are pretty much everyday people, that DO get special treatment. Which is why the CoC was created.
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@JKyll "you have no points, provided no resources or facts so yeah" - I did, you retard.
I referred to the known toxic behavior within the Linux community, that is responsible for many good people leaving it, including the abandonment of Unity and Mir.
I did write that, among many other things. I wrote those facts, that you chose to ignore, and respond instead with "hurr durr SJW!!!".
The FACT is that the CoC does not mention anything about special treatment, and is the complete opposite of that, but somehow your sick little shit brain has completely reversed that.
You haven't addressed any of these. You did not point to a particular part of the CoC that is bad. You did not provide any examples of why the absence of CoC would be a good thing. All you did was throw labels at me, that have nothing to do with me. You made up an enemy because you have an extremist political leaning, and you just can't handle someone who is not a retard like you. -
@monzrmango "Your outburst" - what outburst? Did you read the OP? Did you read the reply chain?
My only outburst was when a wimp with an underdeveloped prefrontal cortex (due to age) thought it appropriate to speak for everybody, including me, about what I'm supposed to do or not do. The rest was pretty much stating facts. Including that he is a retard. There are many teenagers and young adults, but few of them are as obnoxious as this brat. -
@monzrmango "This committee will also need to be ran by people such as yourself" - the rules set forward are very unambiguous. Read them. They are present in most countries' constitutions or penal code.
Arch Linux had a code of conduct for much longer, and one that is much longer, and nobody cared.
I quote:
"pledge to making participation in our project and
our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics .... ."
It's clear as daylight: Don't harass people. Not even if they're fat, old, young, disabled, castrated, what-fucking-ever. Because none of that have anything to do with code.
That's the scope. Examples of inappropriate/appropriate behavior are also pretty clear.
Dos
1. Be polite
2. Respect differing viewpoints
3. Accept constructive criticism
4. Community first
5. Be human
Don'ts
1. Don't be a pervy creep
2. Don't be JKyll
3; 4. Don't break the law
5. Be professional -
@monzrmango "People who have no talent whatsoever, will also be excluding the same intelligent & talented people" - slippery slope argument. And frankly with little to no merit.
Think about it. Non-talented people entering the community? How? Why? They have to come up with good contributions first. Ergo - talent.
But even if, by some unexplained way, some radical political assholes hijack the kernel community - it's all OpenSource! Anybody anywhere can just fork it and gather new communities with improved rule sets.
And what prevents some lowlife assholes with no talent to take over and not allow contributions from people they don't like? Because without that CoC, this is even more possible than WITH it. Again, the CoC says nothing about allowing people with no talent to govern the community. Like it or not, the community is always governed. This just highlights the rules. -
@AndSoWeCode
Ehmke, stated on his tweet that the Linux CoC IS a political document, and further vilifying anyone who dare criticize it as 'lowlifes' or 'nazis.' Are you telling me it wasn't already hijacked? -
@monzrmango "It's better to have no CoC than have one at all." - not according to history.
....
Look, I've read enough books on history, human behavior, neuroscience, etc, to make it short and say this:
When there is no central power, and there is power to be had, there is a power vacuum, that is occupied, ALWAYS, by someone. You advocate pretty much for anarchy, which is utopia. No CoC - any person with influence will enforce their own, private CoC, and put there all of their insecurities, fear, all of the bad memories from being bullied as a kid, and will make it a great medium for displacement aggression, which is objectively bad for the community.
This CoC tries to mediate exactly that. -
@monzrmango If you're referring to the SJW Ehmke, then I don't give a crap what she said.
Frankly, I don't see any authority within developers on this matter at all, because this is not a development matter. This is a social matter, as much as some people shriek at this word. It's about people interacting and collaborating.
What I listen to, is data, and conclusions based on research into similar situations.
First thing I do when I see such arguments, is completely blacklist the opinions of anyone who shouts, without arguments, that it is political or whatever. Bring a quote, show why, discuss, and then it's a valid opinion worthy of respect.
This - quoting, analyzing, discussing - is completely absent from this entire discussion. Only political extremists on each side shrieking.
In all the news about this, all I saw was panic, threats, war, fights, etc. People lost their minds and nobody even cares what the CoC actually says. -
@AndSoWeCode hey I'm not the one screaming retard, I haven't flung insults and I'm a "kid" as you put it so that doesn't talk good about you Mr adult.
Please point us to an example where removing words or concepts from society has benefited society and diminished discrimination, no Nazi book burning doesn't count :)
@monzrmango dude not worth trying discussing just let him present his facts -
@JKyll I called you out as being a kid, because of this:
"Prejudice exists, but if words hurt you, specially not offensive terms, no one is making you contribute to any open source project and I doubt you should.
You said it, no one is special, we are all animals, we compete to advance and survive, your generation has just been too pampered."
That's what you wrote, when I did not provoke you in any way, shape or form.
You have no idea who I am, what my childhood was like, but here you are, talking as if you're my fucking nanny. Listen, brat. If you wanna go to generation wars, then you've already lost right here. It's not millenials who made the SJW word popular. It's recent university students. Your age. Your age that has all the resources at their feet. "Pampered". pfff. Tell me that when you have to work after school to afford 20 minutes per day of dial-up internet.
I just called you out, because you deserve it. You're a stupid arrogant aggressive kid -
@AndSoWeCode
I'm sure you can see that we both agree on being civil and professional to fellow colleagues is a good thing. Perhaps, due to the nature of Open Source projects and the safety blanket of interacting with others behind a screen, civility gets thrown out the window. But is that such a bad thing? People got shit done regardless, and if someone fucked up, they get called out on it. It's not work, you're not answering to managers, HR people, or any senior staff. Your contribution in code is what mattered, and I feel that enforcing some arbitrary CoC is detrimental to the nature of Open Source itself.
Also, the slippery slope effect DOES happen, and if we don't put a stop to this now, we're empowering further bullying from the other side of the political spectrum. Their bullish attitude will continue to spill more into work, and even more into the hobbies we love. When will it end? -
@JKyll "Please point us to an example where removing words or concepts from society has benefited society and diminished discrimination" -
I can't believe how lazy and clueless you are. But fine:
https://ingentaconnect.com/content/...
"Social support at work had a direct and beneficial effect on workers' psychological well-being and organizational productivity without any interaction effect on the work-stress framework"
http://psycnet.apa.org/buy/...
And it's not even limited to humans
https://academic.oup.com/ps/...
Read some books maybe. It's a well established fact, since hundreds of years.
There is already this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
But add to that a source of doubt in the form of "People of your ethnic persuasion can't be programmers", and you get stress, burn-out, low productivity, mistakes. -
@monzrmango "People got shit done regardless, and if someone fucked up, they get called out on it" - the difference is stress.
I've been in the industry for enough time to see that the rod is ineffective. If someone makes a mistake, and you lash out in response, you've lost him/her. You'll never get anything that way.
Be polite, explain shortly what's wrong, and if you don't have anything good to say any more, take some time out, do something that you like, acknowledge that you feel anger, and do what helps you get rid of it without any damage to people around you. Sex, sports, art - they all help with this.
By responding appropriately, the person will be more motivated to do right, and will improve. All people make mistakes. No need to be an asshole about it.
I lashed out at JKyll because I don't give a fuck about him, because I knew I'd never get anything out of the effort of trying to talk sense into him. -
@monzrmango "and I feel that enforcing some arbitrary CoC is detrimental to the nature of Open Source itself. " - the thing is that the word "arbitrary" best describes the non-published rules that every member has for how to interact with other members.
The CoC is at least public, and subject to scrutiny, and takes precedence over personal whim.
And if you fear the slippery slope, you should be more afraid of how personal whims slip away uncontrollably (again, I bring Canonical), rather than a community-sourced code of conduct. -
@AndSoWeCode pfft hey kid, calm your titties I work, freelance and study while advancing personal projects all the while living in one of the most violent cities in the world so go suck on your wife's dick if you think I got it better cus you obviously don't know hardship if you think working and studying is hard, not surprising as seeing your skills on devrant are so limited after being such a successful adult who has already graduated; so as any white girl would say, bitch please.
And now if you read carefully to what I wrote earlier I use no insults not did I intended to, you felt insulted by the insipid generation thing, other than this comment that is totally offensive.
You are so dumb you misunderstood what @irene said and so so brainless as to write several text walls on devrant, this is a stupid place to get mad about rants, please try to survive on a hood and come back when your balls have dropped.
No more comments ;* -
@AndSoWeCode You also linked unrelated articles like the social support one which has nothing to do with removing words from guidelines, like merit.
Now I'll certainly do "my research"😂 -
@irene I think he means the CoC was created to give minorities the special treatment he perceives the majority has (probably white males in IT).
But hey that's just a theory! An NPC theory! See you on the next one.
No but seriously I wouldn't take it to heart, some people do believe it. -
@irene totally agree with no politics in tech but the harmful thing believing it's not harmful not making it less harmful but totally still harmful bit was my favorite bit.
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@AndSoWeCode how is the Wikipedia link to impostor syndrome of all things related to this CoC? As far as I know, impostor syndrome is being in a certain field and believing that you're not qualified to be in it. Like SJW's in tech, except that it wouldn't be impostor syndrome there because that's just a mindset. For the SJW's, that's fucking reality. They do not belong in tech.
Also insulting your peers is so mature!! You must be such a wise person. Please teach me your "life experience" sir. -
@irene "even if someone thinks something harmful is benign, it doesn't make it so" not a native speaker per se BUT that's how I'd say it, I did like it tho I thought it was intentional 😂
What's your native tongue? -
@irene oh the motherland, that's awesome +10 respects as long as you don't spray chlorine in manspreaders 😆😂
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@irene Tesla towers are bad ass, they always get the girls.
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@irene 😂😂 I can't even
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@Condor People are stressed when entering new environments. Just one asshole is enough to motivate their fear of being inadequate, to aggravate the impostor syndrome.
But good job ignoring everything else and getting back to politics and labeling. Good job!
Also, it's a free country where I live. I choose to call out a disrespectful brat whenever I see one. It's not a sign of maturity or immaturity when I realize that there's no point in discussing anything with him.
And from your aggressive, politically focused tone, I'm starting to think that neither is it with you. -
@JKyll "you obviously don't know hardship if you think working and studying is hard" - good job kid, at misconstruing (again) what I said, and assuming (again) about my past, and making this about oppression olympics, you SJW.
You judge my skills on DevRant? Is there a skillset to be had here? Is this a dick measuring website? -
@JKyll "one which has nothing to do with removing words from guidelines, like merit." -
...
...
Did you know...
That words is how people interact with each other, and the .. pretty much single source of social stress in a community? Picking those words has a direct effect on stress.
I honestly thought you weren't dumb enough not to know. I was mistaken.
As for "merit" - the CoC is about the Don'ts, where merit isn't mentioned because it's not the place in that context. Like what, don't negatively discriminate based on good merit? How would you like it to look like? -
@AndSoWeCode freedom of speech is an amazing thing. Unfortunately however that doesn't mean that being what I'd call an asshole is to be tolerated. Throwing insults at "disrespectful brats" just because they disagree with your views from countless years of "life experience", how low and despicable.
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@irene "you do not define what I call. Or you'll get a ticket to "fuck you land". 😡
Your statement about that obviously political and obviously repressive CoC is astonishingly misleading. Do you really believe in your own words? Because I don't believe my eyes."
Calm your titties. Do you have proof that people who have been lashed out on in the past are "snowflakes"? Because it's my right to say that they aren't, unless you have proof. And I don't care about political assholes hijacking this scandal. Show me active developers in respective fields that do nothing useful, yet want to get in on the counts that they're special. Once you do that, you have a basis of calling them that. Until then, you're just plain wrong.
AGAIN!
NOBODY, absolutely NOBODY has criticized anything concrete out of the CoC. Just broad political statements and jumping on discussion bandwagons. WTF?! -
@irene Unity, Mir.
I just refer to the big loud ones (but nobody cares to comment on that). I didn't ask every individual contributor why they didn't contribute because that's impossible. -
@irene https://betanews.com/2017/04/...
Quoting Mark Shuttleworth
" It became a political topic as irrational as climate change or gun control, where being on one side or the other was a sign of tribal allegiance. We have a problem in the community when people choose to hate free software instead of loving that someone cares enough to take their life's work and make it freely available.
I came to be disgusted with the hate on Mir. Really, it changed my opinion of the free software community.
I used to think that it was a privilege to serve people who also loved the idea of service, but now I think many members of the free software community are just deeply anti-social types who love to hate on whatever is mainstream." -
@irene same thing with Pie nowadays unfortunately.. used to be a Paranoid Android feature (which is all I care about when it comes to Pie really) but then you've got the shitflood of Android Pie, new exciting operating system name!!! Fuck that. Heck, the Easter egg isn't good, the UI kinda sucks, material design has gone down the shitter, etc etc.. give me my Paranoid Pie back already Google 😡
And just realized how much I digressed 😛 sorry about that. Definitely more interesting than SJW issues though I'd say.. but it's not like that's very hard anyway 🙃 -
@irene "Seems as you don't even try to be credible." - ok, let me explain what Burden of Proof is.
You made a positive statements "All of those are special snowflakes". It is a positive statement because you affirm the presence of a state that is different from normal (ex. Not everybody in the world is a special snowflake). In order for your statement to carry any weight, you must prove that they are indeed special snowflakes. I don't have to do anything, since I didn't make that claim, nor do I have to disprove every weird thing that people come up with.
If you can't, or won't, then it's a baseless accusation made instead of a proper argument. An Ad Hominem. It's because they are special snowflakes, that nobody should listen to them, or acknowledge their concerns, or accept them.
Them, them, them. Don't you see? You're either complicit, or have been dragged down in an Us vs Them bullshit that is no longer about arguments, but about flinging insults at each other. -
So the common denominator here appears to be "noone likes SJWs".
For the rest, I tend to agree with @AndSoWeCode, minus the insults.
Removing words can help. My grandparents for example always use the word "nigger" because when they grew up, it was not neccessarily derogatory. People felt offended and society agreed to use a different word like "Black People" or "People of Color". Nothing wrong about that.
If meritocracy has created some bad behavior from people in the past (like lowering the probability of accepting pull requests from female nicknames), why not get rid of those associations by using a different word and keeping the original idea ? -
@irene Read for example
https://peerj.com/articles/cs-111/...
Tl;dr : pull requests from women are actually more likely to be accepted overall, probabaly because of higher self-selection. But when the nickname is obviously female, the probability falls significantly below the one for men.
Meritocracy itself has nothing to do with sexism. But the current execution is flawed, because humans make errors. -
@irene i did not accuse you of anything else but not following a logical train if thought. I'm surprised that I have to teach the basis of organised discussion, and now defend it.
Listen, you can't just declare that someone is X without proving it, and you can't use Russian Proverbs to fend off people who ask proof from you. Or do you need a more visceral example? Ok.
Let's say that I state that you're stupid and have no place in programming, and a disgrace to the community. That's basically what you're doing when calling them snowflakes by your own definition. And if you ask me to prove it, I'll throw a Russian proverb at you, and I'll even use Russian for it. How does that sound? Because I've just described this whole mess that you're all making instead of.. for ONCE, addressing points of the actual CoC.
Not ONE of you addressed the actual points. AT BEST! You all did some nitpicking, the kind you accuse me of doing. In response I only get labels, oppression olympics, etc. -
@irene Yes, that's definitely true - however, since a lot of people oppose the idea presented in the study, I would have expected articles pointing out flaws in the method or a study stating the opposite. The fact that I can't find such articles makes me tend to believe the results. Which makes me worry.
After all, this is the scientific method. If you want to prove someones results wrong, find proof for that. -
@irene amazing. You can call people you don't know snowflakes and don't need proof, but a scientific paper is too low of a standard of evidence for you. I mean I get that there is a lot of bogus science published lately, but at least there's SOME scrutiny in it.
Wow.
You know, you'd do good as an antivaxer. No offence, it's just the same pattern. Your anecdotes are more powerful and credible than science. -
@irene which explains the higher success rate for women in general (and is exactly what I meant by self selection). But what about the other side, the lower success rate for female nicknames?
-
@irene where did that come from? Was I too sincere? I'm as calm as ever. My wrist band shows 70-80bpm which is normal for me in a train with lots of people around. You seem to be hell-bent on using ad hominems - ex. It's not that my argument is bad, but that I'm excited, irrational or whatever else you can invent, so you can avoid my actual argument.
Am I not supposed to analyze what you said?
Am I supposed to maybe turn off my PFC completely and let the amygdala take care of it?
Now you're slipping into the "appalling" territory. -
@AndSoWeCode
> calling me and SJW LOL.
> Still advocating for speech policing
> "Tell me that when you have to work after school for shitty internet"
> Implying working and studying is a hardship
> ....Y-you are misconstruing my argument
> Trying to explain @irene she doesn't know what a snowflake is
> While advocating for snowflakes
You must drink a special kind of soy to be so far your own ass. But that's it, I won't argue with someone who deletes his comments as he obviously can't back up what he says or has the balls to stand by the insults he throws, which are as childish as your temperament.
@Condor not worth it man we've lost him into his own ideology.
@jaytar correlation vs causation, has anyone bothered to see why they were rejected on a per case basis? Or as re they just misused statistics to push an agenda? I've read it, looks like the latter. -
@jaytar I've found proof of "scientific" publications publishing articles without verifying, redacting or fact checking them just because they fit their political agenda.
https://youtu.be/kVk9a5Jcd1k
So it's not as much about disproving the scientific method, just proving they don't follow it. -
@JKyll : Hear, hear!
I am currently quite happy with the Falkon browser. ( https://www.falkon.org/ )
However, here is a little story from my work:
I asked a coworker of mine (engineer, female, she's brillant and simply was the best applicant for the job) how she would feel if she got a job because she was female.
Her answer was most telling: "If I got a job out of some obscure quota or by positive discrimination, I'd ask them to call me when they want to hire me because of my actual skill. Then I'd leave."
Morale: Positive Discrimination is still Discrimination. -
@irene it is quite scary because those papers have huge impact on media and in turn society
Yeah Mozilla fuck merit and fuck you too!
This, this is what I was talking about when the fucking CoC came out and everyone (including it's author) started it using it as a political weapon.
You castrated fucking virgins! Mozilla, I want to support you I really don't like chrome but you always manage to disappoint everyone. I'm tired, tired of you morally superior socialists infecting my fucking workplace, entertainment and news.
This is just an excuse for lazy assholes to have their cake and eat it too and it's damn fucking INSULTING to us "minorities", I can work to get nice things just like anyone else bitch! having another skin color is not a disability!
Worst of all, you seem to have straight out millennial retards making these decisions seeing as it's based on an article from a washed up "gender research" professor that thinks Barbie Doctor is problematic, the most biased and dumb source you can possibly pull out of your ass.
Two classmates were murdered this morning, do you really think we care about what your diversity and inclusion Dept thinks it's problematic? You delusional halfwits, the only comforting thought is that your soft bigotry will perish alongside your product when it inevitably diminishes it's quality for sake of "equality".
Want to make better products? Ditch your useless diversity and inclusion department and start optimizing the memory consumption on firefox.
Want to help minorities? Start paying your outsourced developers decently.
I hope this helps people who thought including politics in software development wouldn't have dire consecuences to open their eyes; if not, oh well I guess people will get it when mozilla keeps going down the drain and they get fired because they just outsourced their work in the name of "diversity" just to save money.
https://blog.mozilla.org/inclusion/...
rant
coc
sjws at it again
politics in development
mozilla
ffs