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I don't understand the hate for windows 10 either. I use that and Ubuntu, both of which are nice and do what I need them to do. I've never seen a bsod, what the hell are people doing to make that happen? Sure, updates are annoying but since I only really shut down my laptop like once a month that's the only time I really deal with them. It's really not that painful 🤷♀️ people are crybabies.
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I do not get why Software management has to be done via command line. Most distros have a GUI for the package manager where you have to press "update all". Also I think it is way more productive being able to update 20+ tools with a single command/click instead of updating each on their own like you have to do with Windows
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@mundo03 pun intended :P
Yes I did not know how to use linux. Still can't say I do. Isn't really intuitive, and I'm not one to learn commands.;) -
@wowotek Exactly, it is an option for people who really need its features. But like 95% of devRant present it as trully superior system to Windows.
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The thing that I don't like about windows, is it's unpredictability, and it's u helpfulness when errors occur, along with its unwillingness to work with some essential developer tools.
While I would never use anything else than Linux for my servers, I wouldn't use it everyday use (I've tried). All the drivers, and having to use alternative programs, because the ones you're used to doesn't work on Linux...
Enter MacOS. I'm one of the lucky people who have been given a Mac, and didn't have to buy it, and I'm honestly in love with the OS. you've got everything you need for daily use/browsing the web. But then you've also got an incredibly powerful terminal, and this is where windows absolutely sucks for a devops guy like me.
By now, I use docker on a daily basis. Want that on windows 10? You need to buy the pro version, doesn't work on normal. And even then, docker isn't fully supported on windows, because of them using Hyper-V, which is just not a great hypervisor..
Sorry this got a bit longer than I expected 😅 -
I think the issue is that Linux is very good within a narrow scope (much like most things), and it’s always very difficult to pigeonhole these things due to the nature of software.
I think its biggest problem though, is the people in the community, users and developers.
It smacks of the elitism, purism and gatekeeping behaviours we ought to be moving away from; there’s almost an expectation that Linux should be crazy and complicated and hands-on because it’s for “real” computer users and developers.
From a mass market standpoint, it is light years behind the competition, across all manner of metrics, and that’s ok, so long as people stop putting it on an unearned pedestal.
I’ve no doubt it is technically clever under the hood, but unless you need that cleverness, the point is entirely moot for most people.
Lord knows there are a lot of high-horse Linux and vim douches on here, but there’s also a lot of level headed users too. -
@Brolls well said.
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@happypotter how are you going to write code without commands? configure a switch? check routing tables? and on and on and on?
I had same reservations about linux, but I got a distro without package manager, based on debian and haven't had an issue since.
Drivers and devices? My bunsenlabs debian works out of the box whereas my intel hd driver on my laptop always crashes in windows 7.
I haven't had a problem with a single plug and play device yet. I guess there's one major thing - you have to want to use linux. If you don't then nothing in the world is going to change your opinion.
I use linux, micro$ and soon going to use macOS. As someone said above - all are great, and all are shit. -
@Brolls yep, agreed. elitism is what put me off from few distros (understandably gnome DEs and ubuntu/mint circlejerk) until I found a small clean debian distro BunsenLabs and the community is PERFECT. Not a single post of elitism on their entire forums, any questions gets acknowledged within an hour or so and people actually try to help you.
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Linux is far better than windows in almost every respect, but getting to that point comes at a cost. If you're happy with the garbage handed to you by MS, that's your prerogative, but as for me, I'm more than happy to pay the cost. I'm happy to learn new technologies. I'm happy to try new things. I'm happy to use tools made by people who, like me, are tired of being cornered into one way of doing things. The command line is truly a thing of beauty. It's elegant, fast, flexible, simple, and customizable beyond my imagination.
I use Linux. I use it as a platform for software development. I use it as a platform for media creation and consumption. I use it as my main desktop. I use it for gaming. I use it for hosting my own services. I use it for idle web browsing. I use it every day, in my normal daily life. I took the time to learn it, and now it serves me better than any technology I've ever used.
To claim it's shit because you had a bad experience when you came into it not knowing anything is beyond idiotic. I don't speak Korean. If I go to Seoul and demand that nobody speaks English to me, I'm gonna have a bad experience. You're telling us that my bad experience would be Seoul's fault for not being more like the US, and not my own for not learning the fucking language. -
@cherkie
Elitism is what turned me off of Apple. Not to mention they're not actually easier to use, as people claim. -
I've been using Linux somewhere back in the 90s (modelines anyone?) and as only OS from 2001 to 2010. Then I switched to Win7. So I guess I can compare, and it's not like giving up on Linux after 4 weeks. I still boot live distros via USB in case I need to do some Linux dev where Cygwin won't do.
My conclusion is that desktop Linux was and is no rival for Win7, but MS has ruined Windows after Win7. Desktop Linux is competetive these days because MS has set the bar so low. -
@RiderExMachina hahaha indeed! I almost went to get popcorn 😂
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@SauceBoss
And as a technical professional worth twenty years of experience, I can say that I think you're wrong. Any value anyone perceives with windows is borne of ignorance of the abundant options, complacency, or a lack of willingness to put the work into learning something new. These are all fine, but they are all deficiencies, and not actual positive reasons to like windows. -
@bahua yea I think a lot of people drastically over look that Microsoft locked a bunch of manufacturers into only offering windows machines. They would have to pay a lot more for the license if they sold ANY machines without windows. Plus the influence from the US law saying you can’t retail a computer as complete with out an operating system. Had MS not out this pressure out, I think Linux development for consumers would have happened a lot faster.
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@jeeper I remember computers being sold with FreeDOS, so the formal need for an OS is easy and free to fulfil. It's just that nobody wanted these because desktop Linux still has to catch up a lot.
Part of the reason why is Linux fans frantically claiming it doesn't have to, which has been blocking the road to improvement. One of the biggest obstacles for desktop Linux is the Linux community. -
- last bsod I had.... Don't recall but not too long ago. That's irrelevant in this case, though.
- it wiped out your data: sorry mate but I'd say that's on you. At least with most graphical installers (Ubuntu etc) it's hard to do that without getting quite some warnings. I've seen enough a-techies install Linux (Ubuntu or fedora mostly) through the graphical installer where I literally didn't have to say nor correct a single thing. To blame what happened to you on the system... If you use a cli for installation I'd say fair enough but then, don't use a cli for installation when you're not used to it/don't know what you're doing.
- driver support: I'd say out of the box driver support is superior to windows (no clue about macos), additional driver support can be terrible because many hardware manufacturers don't support Linux which makes it hard to support that hardware. Partly agree, partly don't.
- you don't HAVE to use the/a terminal/cli environment. I've got my entire family on Linux (parents + sister), all running Ubuntu or elementary os and they've never really touched a terminal. Because you don't need to if you don't want to.
You CAN use them, however. I love working with terminals because it allows me to get big tasks/filtering/debugging done in no-time.
I haven't seen a single ui which can do the things I need to do.
"but I don't need to do those things!" - I'm not forcing you to do those things or even use a terminal at all.
- which DE (Desktop Environment) don't you like? You've got many which can actually genuinely look sexy. I'm a KDE Plasma lover and don't like gnome so: I install the plasma desktop when I install my system :D
You'd rather work with windows 95? There are desktop environment themes for that on linux, too, to everyone their preference :)
- sorting by size last modified/including-excluding-hidden-files/doing this all recursively... for me this is awesome so yeah, that's why.
- nearly every big distro (Ubuntu/arch/fedora etc) has a -
Graphical package manager. You don't have to do this through a terminal.
I prefer it through a terminal but that's my preference, don't do it if you prefer otherwise.
- this, although its getting better and doesn't happen that often (to me), can be an issue sometimes. Often easily resolvable but not always. Fair point.
- renaming a file on Linux through terminal: "mv oldfilename newfilename"
- renaming a file on Linux through GUI: *right click file* -> *click rename* -> *type new name* -> *press enter*
Not that hard :)
How to disable automatic updates in windows? No clue, I haven't properly touched the system in 8 years.
But: use whatever you're comfy with :D -
@Fast-Nop I think by artificially limiting the os that was shipped with a laptop, MS windows stalled much of the hobbyists tinkering that was needed to jumpstart the Linux desktop market in the early 00’s. It was a good business one but an ethically bad and monopolistic one. Apple locked down their OS too, but they sold computers of their own brand. Not bullying third parties into locking it down.
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@jeeper Linux was never really ready for consumers, especially not on laptops. And for the manufacturer, that would just have been too many support issues for too few sales. The few laptops that did sell with Linux were returned in droves.
But so what, that's how the Linux community wanted it. Linux doesn't need market share, they said. Fuck lusers, they said. And then they have been whining why hardware manufacturers ignore desktop Linux. The amount of stupidity was and is breathtaking. -
@Fast-Nop
Who said that? IBM? Redhat? Canonical? Novell? HP? VMWare? Oracle? Amazon? Facebook? Google?
However toxic you might think, "the community" might be, the biggest companies in the world are 100% behind linux. If not for their efforts on the server side, there would be no linux desktop. It is at the behest of these companies that desktop hardware is supported, as part of the greater effort to maintain their own server infrastructure.
It doesn't matter how arrogant some kid is on reddit about arch. The fact that Google is literally composed of millions of linux machines on commodity(read: desktop) hardware is what's keeping the lights on-- not patient overworked devoted developers keeping up their thankless job in spite of "toxicity." Linux persists on servers and on the desktop, because the world literally depends on it. -
@bahua among the companies you mention, there is only ONE who actually does something for desktop Linux, and you are certainly aware of the cold wind Canonical got from the Linux community. The biggest companies are NOT 100% behind DESKTOP Linux. They are behind SERVER Linux.
However, people don't want server Linux on their desktop. They want GUIs that a server doesn't have, they want client applications that the server doesn't run, they want hardware support for hardware that isn't in a server.
Also, the distributed open source way is not good at designing user interfaces. It's more suited for programs that talk to other programs. Do a quick match to where Linux has succeeded and where it has failed, and you see the match. -
@Fast-Nop kde plasma, gnome, etc would like to argue that FOSS guis are fine. Furthermore your arguments only show that MS and other big companies wrote the self fulfilling prophecy for consumer grade Linux up to the last year or so. The community lacking the resources to fight and turning more insular is just a side effect. The issue the Linux community takes with bug companies now embracing Linux is that they have been giving the cold shoulder or actively disparaging FOSS for a long time. Plus all concentrations of wealth and power should be looked at very hard, especially in tech.
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@jeeper KDE was of mediocre stability with KDE3 and got downhills with KDE4+ in every regard. Gnome has always sucked because the devs actively sabotage user mods like themes by deliberately breaking shit. I would have suggested XFCE instead, at least after disabling Compiz shit.
And no, FOSS GUIs aren't fine. A big issue is that many Linux devs havn't understood how GUIs even work. Instead, they think of some GUI mapping of CLI options. The discoverability (one of the usability pillars) sucks just as much as with CLI, but you can't even script it. The whole dev process is downright wrong for GUI applications. You have to first decide what the thing shall do, then design a workflow, then design a GUI around that workflow, and only then the backend that implements stuff.
And no, this whole "nanana everything good nanana" is EXACTLY what has been blocking progress for DECADES in Linuxland!
http://timothyblee.com/2010/11/... -
@Fast-Nop
My point is that development for servers begets desktop support. Nvidia maintains a proprietary driver for Linux because of server needs (ML, coin mining, enterprise desktops, embedded systems, etc) and not because they think it would be neat for people to be able to play call of duty on Linux.
Linux is first and foremost a server operating system. And because of that, it's also an excellent desktop. -
@bahua I agree with the server part, but a good server OS does NOT make a good desktop OS. The use case is just too different. You just don't get proper fonts including scaling, consistent GUIs, multiple monitor 4k display, reliable WLAN, sound beyond simple 2.0, nice client applications and so on because nothing of that is relevant on servers.
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@Fast-Nop As for what you're saying about DE's (desktop environments), this is solely an opinion of you. Sorry but I find KDE Plasma and Budgie very beautiful and user friendly.
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@Fast-Nop Also, I'm successfully running (literally worked without any additional drivers) a six monitor Linux setup ;)
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@linuxxx solely an opinion of me? Given the market share of desktop Linux, I'd object. And with "but it's good how it is", that won't change in the future either. Neither will blaming MS for being mean. Or the users for being stupid. Or any other lousy pretext.
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@Fast-Nop Well, as for the market share, Linux distro's don't have a multi-billion dollars budget and contracts with manufacturers so I wouldn't blame that on Linux.
It's not good how it is, it's quite good if you ask me but improvement can always be done! (in my opinion)
I don't get the Microsoft being mean part, could you elaborate? -
@linuxxx well but that is the thing! In server land, there ARE multi billion dollars behind. You pay them when you buy server hardware. That's how paid devs can work on stuff and also be told to do things that aren't fun.
MS being mean, well that you can buy Windows PCs everywhere and Linux PCs nearly not (because nobody wants them anyway).
I wouldn't even mind paying a 100 EUR for a Linux that:
1) supports ALL my hardware
2) and completely
3) has 10 years LTS so that I don't have to reinstall that shit every 2 years with always new bugs and not working old workarounds
4) can always install up to date applications during these 10 years (fuck that moronic package manager that couples system and applications)
5) actually WORKS. Not like in "scratch my itch" and "works for me".
Yeah I know, everything is already perfectly fine, all desktop Linux fans say that. They've also been claiming that during the years where I had that as only OS, that's how I know it just isn't true. -
@lxmcf ancient comment in this thread that popped back up.
I realized something when I re read your comment I realized, Linux is superior, but it’s been held back by windows and anti open source culture for 30 years -
Yep, here I am coming into to work for the second time this week and not being able to work because of some cross dependency bullshit. Google... install this... doesn't work... google new issue... does not work....Google new issue.... uninstall this and install this... error... Google new error..... tells you to do first suggestion and so on and so on. Fuck off
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@JohnBee exactly. I use linux for work sometimes, but I spend more time searching than actually doing stuff. Docker has been a godsend in reducing my frustration.
Does linux suck? Imho, Yes.
A lot of the people bash windows regarding automatic restarts, updates, bsod etc.
I may be unusually lucky, but the last bsod I saw was in 2014 because of a faulty synaptics driver.
I've really tried to use linux to see what the hype is all about. Quite frankly, it sucked. The first time it wiped out all my data, I realized the value of backups. Hence I do not have a single pic of my school now, thanks to complicated ubuntu mounting.
Next is driver support. When I plug in a device, I expect it to work. I don't want to spend a day googling for drivers.
Why the fuck would I want to use a black terminal which gives me a headache. Am I in 1980? Which sadistic asshole designed vim ?
I have seen linux developers who claim to be linux experts and love linux. They take so long to do simple shit. For god's sake don't tell me there are GUI versions of linux available. I'd rather work in windows 95.
Why in the world would anyone want to use ls to see the contents of a directory! It is seriously so fucking unproductive.
I can't just download a software, click next a couple of times, and be done. No no no. I've to do sudo apt get update. Then try to find the fucking package. And if all goes well, there's always the dependency issue which is going to bite me in the ass. If google and stackoverflow go down, most linux devs will die a cruel death.
Fuck you linux.
I'm not saying windows 10 is the best, but at least I don't have to crawl through shit to use it. If you don't like automatic updates, disable it you moron. It is easier than renaming a damn file in linux.
rant
fuck linux