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There is no racism in asking someone where he's from. It's simply smalltalk, or even better: It could be interest in him as a person.
I agree with some of your positions, like treating everyone equal and with respect no matter who he is, what he is or where he is from.
But most of this is a problem of your attitude and has nothing to do with racism, sexism or homophobia by "white straight males". -
@h4xx3r 🙏 as it should be!
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@Benedikt I agree and I'm a foreigner in my current country
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@Benedikt yes and no. It’s all too easy to say “adjust the way you think” when you come from a position of not *having* to think that way personally.
The truth is, conversation and behaviour drive these attitudes and apprehensions of people coming into the workplace, and as I said, they’re more part of being the minority rather than something instigated by straight white men, but it *is* something that is perpetuated and reinforced by them.
The change is going to happen regardless, it’s mostly a question of whether people are going to get left behind or not.
It really just boils down to not being a dick, and sadly, a lot of people are either incapable of that, or they completely and utterly miss the point.
A lot of it has to do with people refusing to see beyond the end of their own nose, admittedly rhetoric about privilege and “attacks” don’t help because they get people on the defensive, but there’s no other language for it. 🤷♂️ -
@Benedikt okay, imagine you’re a person of colour, sat in an office, the new hire.
You have the accent of the country, and someone asks where you’re from, and you reply “I’m from {current country name}” and people *keep* asking “yeah, but where are you originally from?”
It happens all the time sadly, and it is for nothing other than the colour of their skin.
Curiosity and getting to know people is fine, and it’s not like the people asking are being overtly or deliberately racist.
Part of the problem with these discussions is that the straight white men assume they’re being labelled as willingly and knowingly malicious, and it’s simply not the case, you can be a cunt and not know you’re being a cunt... doesn’t make you anything other than a cunt though. -
@Benedikt and don’t get it twisted. The same can happen to white people and men too!
Spaces dominated by people of colour and by women are just as guilty of the discrimination and systemic toxicity towards whites and men too.
But given the prevalence of western attitudes and western industry, we play with the deck we have. -
@Brolls Where are you originally from?
^^ It is worded a bit weird. But asking out where your roots (grand parnets or greater) are comming from is not racist. It can be annoying if you have to repeat this, but hey, so can be your own grandmother: Are you hungry? Do you want something to eat?
It wouldn't be racist of your granny if she asked your coworker where her grand parents are from, or asked your coworker if she is hungry.. but it would be racist as hell if she asked where are you from? (example africa somewhere) and she would then proceed to ask if they are hungry (cuz she deducted that people are starving in africa).. that would be ignorant of your granny too. -
@sladuled yeah. Wording could have been better.
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@Brolls Yeah, it could, but then again, will you hang people for being low on sociall skills?
Imagine talking to someone with asperger or down.. do you really think they are aware they are being rude to you or even racist? I imagine they'd be curious why some person has darker skin and would be asking a lot of inappropriate questions some would deem racist. But are they really? They mostly lack the sense of what is ok to ask and what not and are uncapable of empathy, so can you really mark them racist for that? -
@sladuled no, I wouldn’t advocate for anything against anyone, education is important though.
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@Benedikt No dude. Asking where someone is from is concidered a microaggression and you should be hanged in public for exercising such biggotry. How dare you. Sir.
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@Brolls i can't tell if you are being sarcastic. How dare you, sir.
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@mundo03 I totally agree. But there’s a time and a place.
Joking about a rape at a women’s shelter isn’t a good idea.
Joking about tearing a woman a new one, or about how you had to say “no homo” when you gave your friend a hug, or telling the one about the priest, the rabbi and the black guy at the workplace isn’t appropriate either. It’s a workplace. You’re supposed to be professional, and that means being mindful. -
@sladuled and someone can be homophobic / racist / sexist without intent, but it’s all about education at that point.
In some ways the ones without a clue are the worst, because:
1. They’re in the majority
2. They do the most harm casually
3. They contribute to both perpetuating it and believing it as the norm
At least the ones that are actively malicious about it can be addressed and called out, the other ones are the core target for education.
Honestly. I’m not saying this to call anyone out as a bad person, it’s more nuanced than that, but I will not abide wilful ignorance and the #NotAllMen mentality that some people seem to have.
It’s like a neural network, training data is everything, most straight white men have appallingly biased training data that is systemically perpetuated, and that’s what needs addressing. -
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@Brolls
Jokes depend in the level of familiarity with the audience.
The problem comes when a new member if that audience starts complaining about the harassment that does not exist.
I know many homes which I say no-homo to, they flirt back to me knowing I am a no-homo.
I know many women I can tell rape jokes to too.
They are fucking jokes, whether you want them or not, #no-homo ( see what I did there?) -
@mundo03 yes, and that’s fine, of course it’s about reading the room, but the workplace is a professional environment, by all means once you’ve established a rapport, but it’s when it’s part of the culture that it’s a problem.
I have no problem with straight men saying “no homo” or “what’s up fag?” to me because I’ve already established that rapport with someone, but if that was being thrown around casually in a workplace I’d just started in, I certainly wouldn’t feel particularly welcome.
It’s easy to take the position of everyone else being too sensitive when you’re on the side of not having to experience this personally. -
@Fast-Nop and that attitude is what will see you ending up as a martyr on /r/incels 🤷♂️
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@Alice 😂😂😂
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@Alice they’ve quarantined that one too! I can’t get into it. I assume I’d have to create an account and say I’m 18+ and yada yada yada.
Did you ever read Elliot Rodger’s manifesto? That shit was terrifying. I felt for the poor bastard, but seeing how twisted he’d allowed himself to become was really crazy. -
@echonox that’s fine, as a general question.
But if you ask it of someone purely because their skin colour is different, it starts getting a bit dodgy, even more so if you keep insisting on wanting to know where they’re *really* from.
I’ve had black colleagues harangued for this before even though they’re born and raised British. -
@Brolls mate, you should know that submissive betas are the last to get laid. Not that it has anything to do with the topic.
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@rantalicious I guess it might be because things can be different in different places/cultures.
Over here (this is MY experience), most very logical things (not grabbing a woman by the ass etc) are treated like common sense.
But, on the workfloor or in private spaces, I'll do what I goddamn want *while* respecting others.
Within my friend group, swearing at eachother is a form of friendship/affection, this includes homo stuff. But, that's in a private place and even when a guy is with us who's gay, he's usually the one making the most/hardest gay jokes.
Asking someone where they're (originally or not) from is the most normal thing here so that's a cultural difference I guess.
I'm a straight white male, I respect everyone if they don't behave like an asshole (which includes not calling females hot and other shit like that) and the way I talk to my friends in private or public spaces is my own goddamn business.
Are you lesbian/gay/transgender/whatever? Good for you, congrats. Are you straight? Congrats as well.
Do you want me to call you female things (she/her etc) while you're biologically still a guy? Sure, just tell me because I can't smell that but I don't mind at all.
I find it weird that you call (as far as I'm interpreting it right) me privileged, though. Where I live, I've never noticed anything relating to being privileged because I'm a straight white male.
"privileged experience of life" - that sounds like you're assuming that, just because I'm a white straight male, I'm able to love a privileged experience of life *in general*.
If you'd know me, you'd know that I definitely don't have a privileged experience regardless of my skin color and sex (the straight part, not sure what that one is again), especially right now (health stuff).
So please don't pre-fill that one for someone you don't know. -
@linuxxx see now, this is a common point of friction.
People read privileged to mean economically privileged, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that.
The definition is “a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.”
So, if you’ve ever been present with a female colleague and someone has chosen to speak to you on a topic, despite your colleague being better able to handle it, purely because you’re a man, you’ve experienced privilege.
Literally *everyone* experiences privilege in one way or another.
I for one experience white male privilege all the time, and I’ve seen it in the workplace.
It doesn’t negate my own personal strife and struggles, or how hard I’ve worked for the things I have, or how far I’ve gotten, but it is a contributory factor.
If you’re a straight white male and walk into a predominately straight white male workplace, then you’re inherently privileged. -
@linuxxx I’m not saying it’s malicious, or to be malicious.
But it’s real, it exists, and it colours our experiences of life all the time.
A lot of it is systemic and simply a function of group dynamics and status quo - but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged.
I’ve experienced discrimination in the workplace as a result of being gay, as well as all the usual “how will they react?”, “should I even tell them?”, “will they guess?” internal monologue.
The monologue is my own, but it’s the product of a larger systemic environment.
A straight man can walk into anywhere and not bat an eyelid when he says “my girlfriend”, not so for a gay person.
That’s privilege.
It doesn’t make anyone a bad person, but it’s real, and denying its existence or influence is harmful and does nothing but perpetuate the status quo, and this is why women and other minorities in certain fields are getting fed up. -
@linuxxx I don’t say someone is privileged to knock them down a peg.
God knows I used to think just like you, I’ve had all manner of shit in my life, and it certainly hasn’t felt particularly privileged.
But it has been, in so many ways, because group identity (gender, economics, race, sexuality, height, weight, attractiveness etc etc) do have an influence on our daily lives, often in very subtle and very ingrained systemic ways.
We could all do with examining our positions, and those of others from different groups than ours, and realising how their experience might be disadvantaged relative to your own based on some arbitrary groupings.
A man doesn’t walk into a workplace and begin to worry whether they’re going to get harassed, or told to smile, or talked over as a result of their gender, it happens for women, not all admittedly, and not all the time, but enough, and by enough people that don’t see anything wrong with it.
Challenging it is important. -
@linuxxx and considering the experiences of disadvantaged groups can show privilege clearly.
Consider trans women, particularly trans women of colour.
Employment rates are horrifically low.
Many go on to be fired after transitioning.
Many face significant violence.
Many end up homeless and turning to drugs and alcohol.
Many die very prematurely.
All because they happen to be trans and / or a person of colour.
How often do you have to worry about being attacked for a part of your identity when you venture outside? Not often I’d wager.
Or how about travel? As a straight male you can travel most anywhere in the world and be confident in your safety as a default, not the case for gay people, not the case for women, and definitely not the case for trans people.
It doesn’t make you a bad person, nor does it make the disenfranchised good people, it just means you’ve inherited systemic privilege around your identity. That’s all. It’s not a judgement. But it is a reality. -
Mostly bullshit. In Western countries, women don't face discrimination, on the contrary. Trans people have issues because trans correlates with mental illness like depression, and transitioning just won't solve these issues. Men are more often victims of violence then women. Travel isn't white privilege, it's the passport. An Austrian one is better than a Somalian one because Austria isn't a shithole and people will return there willingly. Besides, whitey gets robbed in shitholes - where people make $2 per month, they won't hesitate to kill over a measly $10. Yeah there are countries where people get killed for being homo, that's because human rights don't count there at all, for nobody. But you don't want to go there anyway.
All in all, it's just the average SJW identity politics crap because the left has become so pathetic that it has retreated to "fight" wars that are long won. -
@Fast-Nop how does that sand taste?
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@Alice no, I’d noticed. I honestly couldn’t give a flying fuck about people’s perception of privilege and their political leanings, but come on... surely they’ve just proven the point about the homophobia, misogyny and transphobia?
It’s quite sad really.
Even sadder to think I used to be that way as well.
Super sad to think I’m labelled a liberal and an SJW when I’m actually from the other camp for the most part.
Ah well, the wave of change has begun, either ride it or drown 🤷♂️ -
@Brolls The ride of change is that the political correctness shit has already a counterwave going. You can usually tell something has reached its pull date when the hype is over the top.
Yeah and that you wonder being regarded as SJW with all the group identity crap that is core part of SJW ideology?! You know, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck... -
@Fast-Nop you actually couldn’t be any further from the truth.
But I suppose you’re used to seeing things in the dichotomy of left and right, so I’m not entirely surprised tbh.
I vote conservative
I voted for brexit
I wanted trump to win
I believe dysphoria is the root of transsexualism and mental health treatment is the best course over surgery
I believe in capitalism
I believe in a minarchist government with a sortition governing body
But I’m also capable of empathy through shared experience, and I never used to believe it, used to hate the suggestion I was privileged, or that these things were as big a problem as they are.
Know what changed it? Seeing it for myself.
Actually talking to *real* people, and not the screaming angry tumblrites and money grabbers like Anita Sarkeesian.
The counterwave will not be successful.
It wasn’t for women’s rights.
It wasn’t for gay rights.
It wasn’t for black rights.
It wasn’t for trans rights.
Are you for real Guido/python devs?! Can we stop shoving politics into non issues just to virtue signal please...
Probably going to catch a lot of heat for this, but the casual misogyny, racism and homophobia in this community is just so, so sad.
I’m not left-leaning. I’m not a liberal. I’m not a feminist (third wave).
What I am however is someone that has experienced the toxicity directed toward myself for a part of my identity I have no control over.
Do you not realise that your heel-digging, joke-making, feminazi-labelling, gatekeeping douchebaggery is *exactly* what has led to the insanity we’re seeing these days? If you keep ratcheting it up, they’re going to as well.
Just take a step back, and try to envision what your life would be like if you weren’t a straight white male (TM), and how the conversations and behaviours you participate in or are witness to in the workplace might affect people that are not in that wonderful club.
By virtue of being straight, white and male you have the inherent privilege of walking into a workplace and not immediately thinking these things:
“Are my clothes too revealing?”
“Is that guy starting at my thighs?”
“Shit. I’m the only black one here”
“Fuck. Did I sound gay just then?”
“Does my makeup make me look like a whore?”
These questions aren’t the fault of straight white males, they’re an inherent part of the minority experience, what *is* the fault of straight white males however is the negligent attitude towards these very real issues.
It’s not cool to judge a colleague’s attitude differently because they’re a woman.
It’s not cool to tell a female colleague to smile.
It’s not cool to make gay jokes like “no homo” in the workplace.
It’s not cool to joke about how hot a female colleague is.
It’s not cool to ask the ethnic colleagues where they’re from, because your implicit motivation is that they’re surely not born and raised.
Accept that behaviours like these are pernicious and dangerous, and be willing to look inwards and realise you may be part of the problem.
Don’t label it as an attack on the heterosexual, the male or the white. It isn’t. It’s a cry to equalise things and make people aware that their privileged experience of life (relatively speaking) is not universal.
rant
racism
homophobic
gatekeeping
misogyny
toxic work environment
homophobia