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Dogwhistles are like red flags. Meaningless on their own and only useful for inference in aggregate. Also like red flags, the internet has a habit of blowing them out of proportion.
AfD isn't considered a fascist party because of the number of flags in their conference room or whatever but because they openly support shit like deporting citizens based on their country of origin. -
Incremental progress while maintaining plausible deniabillity by defending each action as if it stood on its own is a pretty standard right wing tactic by the way. You can look at the speeches of any right wing party in Europe about the second world war individually and argue that they were each about different topics, because the fact that they've been discussing the merits of the Axis powers for decades without ever mentioning that racial genocide is pretty fucked up isn't relevant to any particular speech, but its jarring absence is pretty important to their target audience.
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@lorentz
You're seeing what you're doing? You argue that someone is doing something bad by not making the argument for you. By absence.
Yea, I stick to my guns. Dog whistles remain stupid.
AfD might be fascist. Personally I think they are just the new CDU. I am no friend. In fact, I won't be surprised if I am ending up the only PdH voter in my district. Hard to be any further away from the AfD. But still, arguing by what they are not saying? That's weird. -
@TrayKnots There is such a thing as lying by omission, that implies that omission of significant relations has information content.
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@lorentz
Failure to distance yourself is not a lie by omission.
"I observed him stumble," the police officer reported to the DUI court. "After you kicked my chin," the accused cries out.
That's a lie by omission.
But I still think your whole premise about context sensitivity is stupid. The point is, those speeches you referenced, I don't know them, but they probably were pretty much okay. That's why they were public.
Just point at the genocides. Ignore the speeches. They probably do not hold something. If the red flag exists because of the context of the thing that you do not like and without them it wouldn't be a red flag, then we do not need the red flag. After all, we required the genocide to find it bad.
Dog whistles, still stupid. I do not need to defend the AfD for this. -
@TrayKnots No, we call something a red flag or a dogwhistle on its own basis. It exists either way but it may or may not be intentional so it may or may not have meaning. Since we can't read the minds of the people they originate from, they can always argue that it was unintentional, that they didn't know that gesture had meaning, that they just liked the number, that they just love Germany so much they must proclaim it in every possible way. To maintain some semblance of accountability for both the speakers and ourselves, we can use statistically unlikely combinations of preference and ignorance to base our judgment on public record.
But again, the main basis for the accusation is that remigration is a fascistic idea that self-identifies as a response to the great replacement, respectively new names for deportation and infiltration. This too, like any other statement about ideology, is probabilistic in nature because ideologies are fuzzy and people sometimes do random shit. -
I cannot emphasize this enough, dogwhistles and red flags are meaningless on their own. They are named because the only way you can turn them into actionable information is by tallying them over long periods of time. If you look at any list of red flags for dating, all of them can emerge from a dozen innocent and common scenarios and you probably have done about half. Media, both social and centralized, reacts to isolated events and not gradual change, so they don't handle this well.
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@lorentz
You just made a slight shift in your argumentation.
Before you argued:
- Dog whistles is subset of red flags.
Now you say we call it a dog whistle or a red flag. So, interchangeable. That is just utterly wrong.
A dog whistle's idea is intergroup communication. It is not to be heard by the outside group.
A red flag is an indicator for an observer. A good dog whistle therefore can, by definition, not even be a red flag. Only leaked ones can.
Thought I wouldn't notice, didn't you?
Anyway, you just reaffirmed my point. They speak about remigration, you say. That is so bad, that is no dog whistle, you say. Hence you are right about how bad they were. Hence I am right that dog whistle references are not needed and stupid, after all, I did not attack the assumption 'AfD is bad.' I attacked the notion of dog whistles.
I didn't need to be told what the flag amount meant. -
@TrayKnots I did not say that dog whistles are a subset of red flags, and I didn't mean to imply that either, I talked about both as labels unintended recipients assign to signals, because I think that for the discussion of whether looking for dog whistles is a good idea (which I thought was the central argument of your post) this is a useful category.
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The main distinction is that a red flag is an anomaly in observable behaviour that isn't suspected to have been an intentional message at all on the sender's side, whereas a dogwhistle is an anomaly that is suspected to have been directed at an in-group the recipient is not part of.
I brought up this broader category because since they are both anomalies as compared to an expected range of behaviors, both have a significant chance to be an artifact of the expectation and not the behaviour so they have to be treated as unreliable data that is only useful in mass.
As for AfD, I mainly assumed that you're fine with them because part of the reason Elon's gesture was taken so seriously was his endorsement of AfD around the same time. The signal was not interpreted in isolation but rather as part of a long-running trend of Musk casually endorsing white supremacists and what he calls "powerful leaders" who are characterized by the power they employ against a subset of their subjects. -
@lorentz I don't talk to my grandma since she turned 88. She's a fucking nazi now.
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@lorentz
Am I fine with the AfD?
The might be illegal according to the law. Then they should be forbidden. The 2017 NPD decision was a travesty. Where the judges read that a party must be influential to be forbidden is stupd.
But that's 8 years ago. Our politicians could have amended the constitution. Could have tried at least. They did not.
What we see against AfD is extra legal social consequences. At my uni, a construction worker was target of a debate. The students wanted this guy to be fired or the contract from the construction company pulled.
That's the lowest of lows. Being punished for a legal political opinion. Extra legal social push back should be marked as anti-democratic behavior.
So, yea, we reap what we sowed. At the moment, I have no alternative than being okay with them. We fucked that up with the 2017 decision and the following 8 years of apathy. -
@Lensflare Also who is going to complain about that ? Those who actually see and use that specific random dog whistle you accidentally made ?
But then they reveal their dog whistle...
They end up in a paradox and become angry in their own head. You on the other hand don't care and continue your happy life :D -
@TrayKnots just smash the nazi bro otherwise we'll have to dresden you again
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it's literally a crazy conspiracy theory on their part which is pretty funny because the people seeing signs in innocuous things are the same ones that accused you of that malfunction a little bit ago
people see what they want to see. the world is going crazy. it's not what the fact is but how you feel and if you can justify it
bonus is if the audience buys the justification and then the audience is made neurotic, worried and uncomfortable in their own bodies, which causes more irresponsibility and hallucinating in the group
this is why I dislike people's notions of rudeness. I'm not psychic to what every random person on the planet is going to take offense to. if I didn't intend to be mean you're going to have to just take my word for it! -
@retoor damnit I read this shit again...
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@lorentz the AfD is considered a nazi party because what they want, how they are talking, what double standards they have, how they are intimidating people, and how incompetent they are at what they do is exactly the same as the OG nazi party back then.
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@retoor Pink elephant
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@retoor Buddhists use a similar symbol, and have shaved heads.
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@retoor its called occult organizations try to redefine common symbols to destroy the good in all things.
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the ok sign was a meme started by 4chan
Musk - was it the salute? was it not? while everyone else is busy arguing, local nazi groups are quite clear on what it was. that's the whole point of "dog whistle". clear signal for them, mixed signal to anyone else
"how the fuck am I supposed to know it" - because you're supposed to watch what is happening in society and politics outside of your social bubble -
@qwwerty
Bullshit. The okay sign was presented as seriously as the salute.
Don't let the nazis control your life like that. A nazi puppet is hardly better than a nazi. And after all, who is pulling your strings? Who can make you avoid something just because that group does it now? -
@TrayKnots look all I'm saying is that if every non-nazis killed a nazi there would be no nazis. One nazi each and boom, paradise
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@antigermgerm
Nope, that's not how the Overton window works. When all nazis are killed, whoever stands the furthest on the rights would now be nazis.
This goes on until only one group is left, which declares itself a non-nazi. This groups than splits into two and the one further on the right are nazis again.
The cycle repeats until only a single human is alive, which, in all fairness, can live happily in the knowledge that he is not a nazi. -
@antigermgerm no, there would still be a lot of nazis because anyone who would do that would become a nazi in the process.
Actually, the idea of killing all nazis alone makes you a nazi. So you can start the killing with yourself. -
@Lensflare yeah bro antibiotics are the real biotics
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@Lensflare you seem triggered. Are you a nazi? :D unclench your sphincter bro there's nothing to fear if you're not a nazi.
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@Lensflare you know that nazi guy who killed a lot of nazi? I think his name was roosevelt. A fucking nazi that guy.
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@Lensflare I mean come on, I have nothing to be ashamed of when I say I get a boner picturing the sound of one of these fuckers's skull when I open it with a crowbar.
They want to kill people like my wife. One of them just shot people in sweden. I have the right to self-defense, you know. Jews aren't the only one having the right to pre-emptive self-defense. -
@antigermgerm let me summarize your last comments.
You’d like to kill all people which fit your specific definition, as an act of self defense.
You get aroused as you picture the act of killing, with violent details such as cracking the skull of your victims with a crowbar.
And you say that you are not ashamed of it.
You know, this is much worse than being a nazi.
Don‘t get me wrong, this still makes you a nazi who thinks that killing people which are inferior is completely ok.
But it also makes you a psychopath because of how much you seem to enjoy it and how violently you‘d love it to be.
Even if it‘s just trolling or joking, it‘s still disturbing. -
@Lensflare yeah that would make him a communist/soviet ;P
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@Lensflare guess what, idiot, you've been doing your thing all your life and now the nazis are back in power for the first time since ww2, so clearly you've been doing something wrong. Reconsider your life choice, idiot
If you're not fighting the nazis you might as well be one of them.
Enjoy seeing your wife raped by some russian, you dumb bitch -
@Lensflare remember when the nazis killed all those nazis in nuremberg, stupid?
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@Lensflare now look bitch i got no patience for right-wingers my now.
My grandma just died. She was anemic, her vitals were terrible, she was mistreated, malnourished and overall terribly taken care of. They are chronically understaffed.
Meanwhile these kind of scums want austerity measures and are ready to allies with litteral nazis to get it.
Fuck them. They deserve death as much as this american health insurance CEO. -
@Lensflare these people would send my wife back to her death without any second thoughts. Fuck them
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@antigermgerm Who knows that nazi's graduated as doctors and are now already killing old people...
Still a great loss!! my condolences
Also just because right is getting in power doesn't mean they are all the same. A lot of them are standing for their own people first. But that doesn't make them nazis I hope... -
@Grumm you are trying to argue with someone who's believe is that right wing equals nazi and who fails to realize that he is a nazi himself.
AND of course everyone who disagrees with him is a nazi. -
@Grumm banality of evil
Nazis used people "just doing their job" to kill people. this is not any different than the medical profession these days. iirc medical "malpractice" second cause of death, and that's with them admitting they did it not controversial shit like statins
and you can't make money off of old people. the west really fucks up their old people relative to where I came from. always drives my heart nuts because I was very close to my great grandma and grandparents -
@Lensflare I guess you're nat-seeing his point of view
I hate the idea of dog whistles.
For those who do not know what I am talking about: A dog whistle, next to being a physical object you blow in that makes a sound dogs can hear, but is too high in frequency for most humans to hear, can also refer to a hidden sign for a group or ideology that is supposed to be only known by its members.
Here, in Germany, we usually use it for Nazi groups. Hey, 88 is a dog whistle for Nazis, because, the 8th letter in the alphabet is the 'H', and 'HH' stands for Heil Hitler. Alright, got it.
But how the fuck am I supposed to know it? I am not a member of those groups. Well, other people, who look at them tell closely, told me. In a way, you want me to keep up with them, so I can know the newest dog whistles to avoid them?
Another famous one is the attempt to claim the okay sign is a symbol for white power. But here I stand and say, no. I was making this sign all along. I did not signal white power. I was signalling that everything is okay.
And isn't that racist in the first place. Black people cannot swim stereotype. And then they choose the white power signal from diver's sign language? Because they knew, no black person was a diver? Don't mind me, I am just taking the piss.
Then there was Elon Musk. I don't like Elon, I think he's an idiot. I also think that he made it possible for lots of tax money to flow into SpaceX and pay really smart people to work on rockets, which I like. Somehow, in a modern world, we have to do that instead of just funding NASA. Anyway, he is accused of doing a Nazi salute.
But if that was a Nazi salute, that was the sloppiest Nazi salute ever. It was akin to a dog whistle to a Nazi salute. Every proper Nazi should tell him how embarrassing his salute was. But instead, the Overton window on a Nazi salute widens.
We should make fun of him not being capable of doing it right. He would then obviously publicly state he is no Nazi. And some Nazis will believe them.
Ever wondered why in war some national leaders will tout obvious lies? That's because, often due to an information bubble, sometimes because of confirmation bias, many will believe them. If they said the truth, every single one listening would know the truth. If they lied, there is a substantial part of the population ill-informed or invested enough who wants to believe them. And if that's a preferable state, a leader will lie.
Why do we assume that dog whistles are just something we don't understand, but somehow, without writing publicly available guides or news broadcast spelling it out, the subgroup that uses that dog whistle, perfectly understands its meaning.
Recently AfD, German right wing party, had a party conference, and the number and position of the flags on stage was somehow aligned with the number of... what was it... SS branches or something in the third reich? Come one, you're reaching now. You tell me that right wingers are so well informed history buffs that they would ace any history exam about it and equate every subliminal message?
I probably had a dozen dog whistles in this text that I don't know of. Do you know how those groups actually learn about their own dog whistles? Standard media tells them that is their groups dog whistle and they copy it. Copy cat. Funny side note, that's how satanism actually started. Copy cats from stories from the church. They tried to scare people about those evildoers. At least that's one popular hypothesis. Aleister Crowley, not Church of Satan satanism.
Anyway, I hate dog whistles. We commit them constantly, we cannot avoid it and it incriminates everyone. It keeps broadening the definition of every forbidden/frowned upon action. It's shit. If you argue dog whistle, I think you're a moron.
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