So enlighten me here. Am I the only one that doesn't lose his absolute shit when it comes to privacy?
I know that some companies are collecting data, and to a certain extent, I'm fine with it as long as the trade-off is good.
I like that Google is "learning" who I am and what I like, cause now, I only see news and articles relevant to my interests, and search predictions are much better. Same with targeted Ads. On an off chance that I'm not using Adblock I like seeing products that I might like, which I otherwise probably wouldn't even know existed.
Except for Microsoft. I have no idea why, but that's where I draw the line.

In this thread,

I don't care about privacy.
But fuck Microsoft!

@BigBoo yup. It's not even that I'm a linux fanboy. I use Microsoft, just don't like it.

Nah I don't give two flying fucks.

I'm too stressed with other shit to care about my search history.

I have this 'fear' that we become separated, getting grouped up and go around thinking life is great, because of all this targeting.

You like football, here spend your life on football!

You like expensive shit even though you don't have the money and have to take loans? Here's some shady loans you can take for this expensive shit!

Other then that, I also really enjoy that my life on the internet is more personalised and am content with people making easy money off of my activity - all while they get better at doing what they want/provide

@Alice You made me laugh out loud, thanks I haven't done that all day!

@Alice Hmmm, getting quite intrigued now

@Alice Intense LOL

I lolled, should have kept the original @Alice

Define losing your shit about privacy?

And then also, define 'privacy'. Because privacy is a lot of things. In case of the Internet, privacy is about being able to control who/what has access to certain data.

This can be control in the form of keeping data offline or maybe encrypting it with a key/password only you have.

This can be in the form of choosing certain services over other ones as for their data control options.

This can be in the form of asking someone whether they're okay with you posting a picture online or not and if answered no, actually not posting it and thus respecting their choice to keep that bit of data of themselves offline.

This can be in the form or not giving an app (WhatsApp or Facebook for example) access to your address book and thus keeping your contacts out of the databases of a certain service (I don't think you should be the one who has the right to decide whether or not my contact information is uploaded to a certain service. And no, it's not my right to decide that for your contact information either)

This also can be in the form of choosing services which respect privacy over ones which are known to be integrated in massive government powered mass surveillance networks.

Because you know what?
No matter what your choice is:
- It's a fact that there are services which are privacy friendly.
- It's a fact that there are services which are integrated within mass surveillance networks.
- it's a fact that there are services which don't give a single fuck about its users' privacy.

And: it's a fact that we have no fucking clue as to how our data can be (ab)used in the future.

That you don't care about that: fair enough! Just keep in mind that you also might be sharing someone else's data.

@linuxxx well that's the thing. We have all the freedom to install/use the services we want. Don't like permissions? Don't use it.

Ofc I do care about credit card info and other REALLY private info that's sometimes required, but other than that I really don't.

The internet is inherently unsafe and I accept that. Hell, my phone provider logs my calls and messages for up to three months. I can't get around that.

I gave up on privacy long ago. My point was, it's nice to get something off of it.

@while If you gave up your privacy a long time ago, could you please share all your online account usernames/passwords in your next comment?

On a serious note, I remember a thing that happened a few years ago.

I always try to keep everything possible out of google's hands (I rather keep that surveillance network out of my life). A guy asked me for my number to keep in touch, I gave him my number (had kept it out of google's hands for about 5 years (since I got it)) and saw as he clicked on the save button in Google Contacts.

I just smiled but I was so fucking angry. 5 years of trying down the drain for fucking nothing.

@linuxxx see I just don't get it. Maybe I'm not educated enough on the topic, but what's google gonna do with you phone number?
And if you're interested in security, wouldn't you want your phone as a two-factor authentication?

As for the joke about accounts, ofc I would mind. That's not what i meant. I think someone's missing the point? (Could very well be me).
Let's say I have a google account. What's google gonna do with my username and password? Log in and snoop around? Well they don't need my pass for that. BUT. If I chose to upload nudes to my google photos. Well, that's on me. That would be stupid. That's what I mean. I don't care if they're going trough my search history or texts cause I have nothing to hide.
What do I care that someone at the google or facebook or nsa knows what my wife is cooking for dinner, or which pub I'm gonna go to with the guys tonight.

My point is that I don't care about who sees what as long as I'm smart about what I'm letting them potentially see

Well, I also don’t really get it :) I mean. I do understand why some companies gather so much data and so on and most of the time I'm ok with it. as you said I don’t really care and as long as I want to keep smth private I will be extra careful to not share it maybe even keeping it encrypted...
@linux just out of curiosity are you using an android phone cause it.s linux based or not because it.s google ?:)
Back to the point, most data is gathered for analytics targeted marketing and behavior marketing... Well i.m fine with it don.t wanna see ads regarding cats while i.m more of a dog person and maybe i find it usefull when my iphone is recommending to open an app because most of the days I use it at that time or bixbi.s function that recommends calling my father when i.m out with my dog... Those little things are making my life easier letting me focus on other stuff. So yes i.m ok with it more over that i know that 99.9% of the time my data is not even read by a person ....

me either.
you can ignore my username.

@Alice When you give someone your password, they can post in your name and thus add to that stack of wht companies know about you.

@while I've reached my explorations, going to call in some people :)

@Root @FrodoSwaggins

One follow up question: if someone would be watching you very move through your windows (no pun intended) illegally and you'd find out, what would you do?

@FrodoSwaggins Glad I called you in!

I do want to add that there are AOSP based roms which come without Google services (running one myself), so it's possible to stay out.

@Floydian
If we cant see the stuff that is bad, we can never inprove it.

Back from my beauty sleep, and oh shit, @linuxxx brought reinforcements.

Before I start tho, I just wanna say @linuxxx that I see the password thing as a strawman argument, and as for the window analogy...

If you moved to a shady neighborhood, and read in the papers that "there's a creep that lurks in front of people windows", you wouldn't walk naked or jerk off in that room, or make a curtain out of your credit cards, your family birth certificates, gf's favorite sex positions and so on. You'd keep that info somewhere else.

Before proceeding any further, I just wanna clarify that I mean no disrespect to anyone by anything I say/have said (cause I've been told that it can seem that way).
I respect everyone's opinion and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.

@while Haha, you're saying it like I can't handle myself. I can, only I sometimes run out of good ways to put things and then I call in my dear friend @FrodoSwaggins.

Do you know why I don't see the password argument as a bad one? Because a friend of mine is deeply covered in legal shit due to that exact problem. If it goes wrong, his life is about over, if not, he is a veeery lucky guy.

As for the window example, you didn't answer my question. It's important for my point that you answer it ;)

The reinforcement thing felt kinda disrespectful but I know why I brought that devRanter in there's no shame in that for me.

@linuxxx I'm sorry man, didn't meant to sound disrespectful. It was supposed to be a joke. Like "the cavalry's here". But oh well, I probably fucked it up, so my bad.

To answer your question tho, if it was illegal - sue/kill

But if I gave him my consent and he agree to be helpful around the house, hey I got myself a butler. I just need to keep my shit I care for somewhere else.

Now then, @FrodoSwaggins pick that mic back up, we've only just begun.
To start of as Alice: 2. Would you like to know my favorite positions as well? There are big difference in what you're ashamed of someone finding out, and actual data that MUST be kept private.
But I digress. I was actually waiting for you to show up when it comes to topics like this, judging by your "deducted" profile.
You say I'm thinking too small, and that might very well be the case, but it looks to me that you're thinking too big. My dude, that's some conspiratorial level shit right there.
Everyone knows that facebook, youtube and many others use "addiction" methods. It's not a secret. What bothers me the most is that you're trying to say that everyone's the same. Not every manipulation tactic works the same on all people. If it did, I'd say that facebook is not using any addiction tactics or if they are, all of the people who work on it should be fired cause they're not doing anything.(char limit,cont)

As for youtube, yeah it's knows that the site tries to keep you on for as long as possible, and as someone who's a visual learner, I do spend considerable amount of time on it. Also cause of the music. I'd say that about 90% of the time that my pc is turned on, youtube is as well.

But what's so wrong about that? I like that when I open my Home tab, I see mostly useful stuff on it cause it knows I like programming and blender tutorials. It's useful. Ofc I'm not gonna click Ruby for beginners even tho it's a programming tutorial cause that doesn't interest me.

As for facebook, even on an off chance that I actually go on it cause I need to check my university facebook group, It's cool that I'm starting to see job offers for the things that interest me.

Same with android. I know it's always on. Snowden was a thing, even tho most people forgot.

Hell I experienced a targeting ad for a hand on only keyboard I only talked to my gf about.(char limit, cont)

But noone's sitting in google HQ furiously masturbating to the sounds I make in the bedroom.

The one thing I find odd is that both you and linuxxx ommited to say is, if I was so concerned with privacy, what would I do with my phone company who keeps my call and message hystory (I have to correct my previous post) for up to 12 months BY LAW?

Stuff like where did the call originated from, to where did it go, how long was it etc etc (that's only the law part, who knows that there's more).

@while All good!

So let's go with sue. You'd sue someone looking through your window. But would you sue someone or something or an organization spying illegally on you?

If yes, why aren't you in court right now? If no, why not? It's happening all day, every day.

And that last part, the all day every day one, is why I choose not to use mass surveillance integrated services.

@while About the thing aimed at Frodo, Facebook has already done experiments showing that a lot of people using it are alike in the case you're describing.

But also the fact that many people are okay with using mass surveillance integrated tools worries me a lot.

@while As for the phone company part, that's an easy one: use other services!

I do all calls through signal. Routed through a vpn server.

It's not that difficult :)

@linuxxx Hey, I mostly agree with you on a lot of points. But I think you are more passionate about the issue than me.

But I have a genuine question.

If you are concerned about privacy to the degree that you refuse to use certain services due to their mass surveillance nature.

How come you have a phone? It enables you to be tracked even if you turn it off.

Not meaning to be a stump question or anything. Genuinely interested. I know for example that Stallman refused to have a cellphone for this reason.

@BigBoo For the same reason as a bit part of the earth's population does: messaging, taking pictures, etc!

Of course this device can be used to track me but that's something which is the case with every cellphone.

The big difference is that I put loads of time into limiting what my phone can get from me.

- custom rom.
- no Google services installed.
- root firewall which blocks everything by default.
- vpn at bootup
- physical switches on the camera's
- using my own dns servers (writing one myself at the moment)

I can't be invisible but I can limit the living shit about what they can get from me through my phone.

@linuxxx it is. It's really difficult and inconvenient. I like my phone plan.

As for facebook, I don't understand what you were trying to say. Sry english is not my primary language

@while What is? 😅

And I've got unlimited data so it's hardly a hassle for me :)

Facebook has done multiple social experiments on their users without them knowing it. For the record, that's highly illegal where I live.

They put something in the android app which made it crash the more often every time people opener the app after a crash. Solely to see if people would come back no matter what. They got away with a fucking sorry.

@linuxxx Ever thought about using a Faraday cage? I know there a fabric versions which can be sewn into clothes. But I have not used them and I have no knowledge of how effective they are.

Mostly I've heard people use them when stealing phones so that they can't be locked down remotely.

@BigBoo and what, take it with me everywhere I go....?

@linuxxx Sew it into a jacket. I don't think that's a stretch to figure that one out from what I said.

Edit. Or a backpack.

@BigBoo Oh I thought you were making fun of me, sorry.

Well calls and stuff are still things I do as well but I think my current protections are quite good :)

@linuxxx well unlimited mobile internet is very expensive here.

And yeah I think I read something about that, but once again, not everyone is the same.
I play a game called "Fallen London". Been playing for few years now. They eventually released an app which was horrendous. Crashes, missing pictures, slow as all hell.
It worked, but it was a chore.
So I said fuck it, not gonna bother with it, even tho it's much more convenient to play it on the go.
On the other hand my friend had no problem making the trade-off of using a buggy app for convenience sake.
Ofc it wasn't intentionally buggy as an experiment, but even then you can see people reacting differently.

@linuxxx Nah, I'm trying to gauge where you draw the line. To some degree I totally get you. And to some degree I think it's funny that you draw very arbitrary lines where enough is enough.

Don't get me wrong though. I also do the same thing. I guess we all think we have the right idea and any major deviation in either way is just crazy people.

Hopefully you're not offended by this observation. I think it applies to everyone.

@while May I ask where you are from? (I get a thing called privacy so if not, that's all good)

@BigBoo Give me an example of what lines I'm drawing are arbitrary?

@linuxxx it's even in my bio. Serbia

@while Oh right, missed that one 😅.

I'm totally fine with anyone using any service, as long as that doesn't mean someone else's data getting integrated within that service without their permission :)

@linuxxx It's exactly where you draw the line. You could go further but you're not willing because of the trade offs. How isn't it arbitrary?

@linuxxx I get that you and Frodo are very passionate about privacy and you have every right to be, but you gotta understand that some people aren't ignorant and dismissive about what companies are doing. We're just fine with it as long as we get something useful in return

@BigBoo Because it's very obvious where I draw the line here.

As far as I know, a faraday cage doesn't let communications in or out. That wouldn't work for someone who has to be reachable and would remove the entire purpose of a phone.

I draw the line where the entire use of a device becomes unusable.

@while Some people aren't ignorant about what companies are doing? Yeah exactly, and me and frodo are those people...?

Wrongly formulated maybe? (no offense)

@linuxxx I meant some people who don't care about privacy aren't ignorant and dismissive, as opposed to people who don't care and are ignorant or just not informed

@linuxxx Yes. But let's say that I have a number line. It's the numbers 1 - 10

I draw a line at 7.

My reasons are,

Lucky number
Biggest prime, out of the numbers
Number of characters in my favorite fictional characters name.

That line is still drawn arbitrarily even though I had motivations. Even though some motivations are objectively true.

You have these motivations because they are in line with what you feel. And since you feel like you do, it's probably going to be in line pretty much all the way with your believes.

They are inherently arbitrary. But I'm fine if you don't want to see it that way. I'm mostly curious of how you see the world and if we could agree on some points.

I'm also not focused on the particulars. I'm just trying to poke holes. So I don't really care about Faraday cages.

I'm also not saying you are better or worse for having any opinion. Just wanted to find some stuff out.

Thanks for your time.

@BigBoo you know you're making a weak argument, it doesn't actually have anything interesting to add to the debate.

I believe we should protect the environment, where do I draw the line? That's my choice, irrelavent to the debate

@Hedgepig Exactly my point.

Well we just violently agreed! Lol

@FrodoSwaggins (although this is aimed at @while, I wanted to reply anyways) because they exploit personal data and probably get quite some money from the US government as well.

@linuxxx @FrodoSwaggins I'd say because they "pioneered" (not really) something that people wanted, and they did it well, but sure, I can accept @linuxxx 's answer as well

@FrodoSwaggins I don't but there's an option to if I'm not mistaking? To expand? I'm really sure
But they mostly make money by selling data to marketers. Fairly known stuff

@FrodoSwaggins targeted ads. SOME people can be exploited with it. Addiction and manipulation exist both on and off the internet.

@FrodoSwaggins nope, I don't at all. I think you're severely overestimating the power of targeted ad on a university student with no income

Anyway dude, would love to continue this but I need to head out and I don't have internet if it's not wifi.
Back in 3 hours max

@FrodoSwaggins why are you so sure that I was?
And cause I can't spend money on targeted advertisement if I have no money to begin with.
And if I don't, how do targeted ads have any impact on my what so ever?

@FrodoSwaggins Enjoyed this debate, consider me converted.

@FrodoSwaggins @linuxxx

You guys are much better at elaborating on this, than I ever thought I would be experiencing on a platform like this. Psychology is a field I really enjoy and I know how 'destructive' and powerful these forces are.

I really do have the same notions, but have given in, both due to a lack trying & I also realised to late. I haven't really done anything to fix it since.

Do you have a 'path' on how to stop getting survailanced as much? I do get that you won't share secrets and important knowledge. But how about some books or some initial thoughts to begin a journey towards more digital privacy?

@FrodoSwaggins as I said man, you're thinking waaay too big. If something terrible happens in my country, or it gets taken over by dictatorship I'd have much bigger problems than someone digging something I posted 10 years ago. I mean talking shit against the government is a bad idea even if you don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship.

You keep saying that data is the power over me, and while I do agree to some extent, what kind of things do you think they have on me that I wouldn't want them to have?

@FrodoSwaggins they're not trying to trick me. I'm giving them info ON PURPOSE.
It's a simple exchange.
-"Hey give us your data"
-"Here you go, now give me free shit and tailor my internet experience so that it's convenient and suits me"
-"Ok sure"
-"Good"
-"Good"

@while Think you’re missing the point. He isn’t saying that inappropriately stealing your data with your consent.

He’s saying that they have no business accessing some of the data there asking for
At least that’s what I’m getting from this

@forE that very well might be, but I'm yet to hear what kind of data are they collecting that I'm not fine with

@while I have a to do list app on my phone for some reason requires access to my contacts & camera? I imagine that problem comes under the context of this discussion

@FrodoSwaggins Thanks, I'll think a bunch about what to do. Thanks for reminding me!

@forE I said that before. You have sooo many things to chose from, that's not the only todo app. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's that simple. I like Google, so I'm fine with them knowing shit about me.

@while Again your some what missing the point, if I’m okay with that and that doesn’t just implicate other people like me who think it’s okay.
It implicates everyone on my phone.

Let’s say I had someone on my phone who didn’t want their information being known by some shit like that and I have their number stored in my phone? Oh shit to late. Their choice to not have that information stored is now lost because I decided that for them by allowing them access to my contacts. & at that point it’s no longer a 1 to 1 relationship between me and the app, its exponential.

@while and then there’s implications that because of data you’ve passed now will have future implications how you’re tracked & monetised.
You only have to look at the Facebook situation with the US elections to see how quickly data can be used to politically weaponised to more or less rig an election.
& I’m not taking sides either, but I’m definitely seeing the implications of having a fuck it attitude when it comes to data.

@FrodoSwaggins you keep getting back to Equifax like it happens every day.
@forE ok I'm sorry if I'm missing the point, but what's that app gonna do with your phone number?
Hell I'd argue that the phone number is the least safe thing you have cause you're trusting every person you ever gave it to to not do anything with it.

@while It’s not just about the phone number, it’s about a company having the ‘cheek’ to ask for it when I’m trying to make a todo? It’s become normalised to request information that you have no business knowing I guess...
& then there’s the future consequences of them having this amount of data available? I mean Im not to found of the idea that a company accurately being able to identify me anonymously based on the text from a Facebook post I made 5 years ago...

@forE ok you're not, and that's fine. But I am. And that's also fine.
For God's sake, I shared my picture on here.
Why is it so hard to get that some people get "the consequences" of sharing data, but still choose to do it cause the company actually gives me something in return.

@while Just for curiosity sake how much do you actually value the return?
The ad experience? Really? Because 80 percent of the population that regularly uses the internet use add blocker..
like what else do you actually get?

And again, you’re missing the point... you wanna share, you wanna share your data that’s fine you share it, but by sharing your contact details you’re potentially sharing mine if you had my number, do you see where I’m going with this?

@FrodoSwaggins who's pretending? We know they are.

@FrodoSwaggins Was about to type the exact same thing

@forE I'm getting a great Search, free cloud storage, one of the best translate tools, gps navigation, solid browser etc etc... And to me it's convenient that they're all in one place.

And please, I'm seriously not getting it, I'm not trying to be provocative, what are they gonna do with your phone number? Get your name? Most people use nicknames.
Get your name trough a contract with the phone company? You're fucked there even if I don't give them the number. I just don't get why the phone number is so important. You're literally trusting other people with it. It's the least secure thing you have.

@while Okay so back to the first point because this seems to be going round the first point -
Tell me why the fuck google maps requires access to my contacts?

If a phone number offered no value to them they wouldn’t be asking for it. This will be the last comment I make in it because it does seem to be going round in circles.
I accept that it doesn’t bother you, and the above isn’t meant to come across hostile in anyway so please don’t take it that way but we really are going round in circles now.

@FrodoSwaggins I will thx and good for you man, you're a Linux user. I like my gaming so I'm not.
I'm open to education, it's just that you're not presenting any info that's already not a public knowledge.
I said that I get you point of view, and that even tho I think differently, yours is still valid, but you're aggressively dismissing my way of thinking and trying to convert me to yours.

@forE I agree, this thread is mostly pointless, and I'm getting tired of it.
No offence here, I really respect everyone's way of thinking, but at this point, you two sound to me like a paranoid conspirators who would take their ID picture if they didn't had to, whereas I probably sound like a corporate shill trying to do a damage control after the last leak scandal.

(Please don't take that as an insult, it's meant as a joke).
This was never meant to be a Steven Crowder-esk "Change my mind" topic I simply wanted to see if other people feel similarly to myself.
As I said before. i didn't try to change anyone's mind here.

@while Fair enough bud, no worries

@FrodoSwaggins look man, I still have all the respect for you and for everyone that disagreed with me in this thread.
Just because we disagree doesn't mean that I think I'm better than you or that I'm trying to make you think like I do.
I remember a while ago you had a "mega rant", and one of your points were that people who like c# are just...wrong.
Come on man. I use unity so I like c#. I'm not saying it's better than anything else, I'm just saying that I like it and that that's my personal opinion, which should have no impact on you whatsoever. People are individuals. Not everyone has to conform to your standards.

I would just like to bury the hatchet

@FrodoSwaggins fair point, my bad

@FrodoSwaggins and that's fine. I can respect that.
I've been using the same mail I did when I was 14 (or so, not really sure).Every account I have is tied to it, so migrating to something else is almost impossible. But if it was, what would you recommend?
Also which search engine and cloud storage?
Also I can't run Dota trough steam on linux. WINE is also out of the question since it can't run Vanilla wow for God's sake.
What about my android? It's a loan so I'm not able to root it.
Most importantly, what's you youtube substitute?
Also what am I to do since I need google classroom for my University?

@while pretty sure you can play dota on Linux to be fair

@while Just chiming in with DuckDuckGo and ProtonMail as some suggestions

@forE My setup can't. On lowest, the stutter it literally unplayable. No problem on Windows (still on lowest tho)

@while ahh I get you

@FrodoSwaggins nVidia gts 450.
Any free options? Paying is almost impossible for me

@FrodoSwaggins honestly not sure, it's been 2 years since I last tried it. Don't remember

@while @forE @FrodoSwaggins May I just add that a company holding terabytes of personal information (thousands of data points of millions of people) just got breached today? By a cyber security person luckily (not-secured database) but damn this would have been bad.

As for the phone number example, its not only about whether they can use it in any way, its also about the fact that you storing it a d automatically syncing it with Google is bad imo. Solely for the reason that you're technically giving it to a company without permission of the person it belongs to.

Want the Facebook/car insurance example?

@FrodoSwaggins I THINK not sure, but think, that that's what I went with. But that's not even the problem. It it barely runs vanilla wow, I can't imagine it running anything newer.

Also, is there any possibility for free hosting?

@while @FrodoSwaggins Facebook example:

A car insurance company in the UK nearly had a deal with Facebook until it got too much bad feedback and they pulled it *for now*.

The idea was that new customers would have to give their facebook account and they'd ask Facebook for a profile on that user. The algo would look at how firm/'aggressive' someone was in their posts. The more they were, the higher the chance the customers would be more reckless. This could decide whether to give a client a higher price or not.

The problem is that we aren't the one who decide what the algorithms do/decide is bad/decide is okay.

@FrodoSwaggins cool I might give it a shot. Privacy or not it's something I always wanted to try

@FrodoSwaggins while I will try SDF, I hope you get my point.

I don't have money for VPN, dedicated pc, or server.
I can't game if it's not on windows.
I have no control over my phone.
For university I am actually required to use google and windows.

Not everyone is in position you're in. If you're homeless and someone gives you a baloney sandwich, you're really in no position to complain that you don't like sausage.

@FrodoSwaggins I will, but as I said that only covers search and email. And even then I'm still using google classroom, unmodified android and windows.
This is basically nothing

@FrodoSwaggins let's not forget facebook for university group

@Kandelborg actually decided to give it a shot, and after only few hours I realized that Duckduckgo is just awful for my region.
For example, I tried to search for a fire that happened few months ago in a nearby place, by searching for "<Place> fire" (in native language ofc),and duckduckgo shows 3 results for a fire that happened over a year ago, then just few different store pages (guessing cause they're in that location), then just recent Serbia news that has nothing to do with either fire or <place> (other that they're both in Serbia), and then just nonsense results that have nothing to do with anything I searched for, some of which aren't even in Serbian.
Startpage.com is MUCH better.

@while Thanks for sharing. No pun intended haha.

In all seriousness though, I haven't been much around it myself. I do however know that they have search regions and that yours are not on that list - making me a bad 'suggester'. I'm sorry for getting you hopes up. Perhaps you could try writing them, and ask when they'll get around your region.