Other than being an a**hole, Linus. Guy changed computing as we know it with a little pet project

@irene Linus himself took some time off to improve his behavior. So, definitely a bug.

@irene Linus and forced? Hahaha, good one.

project management by perkele was always my favorit

I miss the days when assholes would choose to stay assholes or conform due to introspection as opposed to the whiny unrealistic peer pressure to conform by people who rather whine and complaint instead of doing their own introspection.

@bioDan there's definitely a healthy balance there

Like many projects they also adopted a cancerous code of conduct so Linus was kinda forced to at least pretend to not be an asshole

How is not being a jerk a cancerous code of conduct? You can be harsh about code quality and review without being horrible to the person who wrote it.

@Techno-Wizard Oh no, it's cancerous because degenerate marxists wrote it

@12bitfloat Ah, yeah. The classics. Honestly, we need some of that in the world. Yes, it's incredibly flawed. However, it's balances out the other radicals in our world. We need Marxists because we have white supremacists and nazis? again? somehow?

@Techno-Wizard There are always idiots, what scares me is that radical marxists have already infested every major institution in the west. What we need more of is people who know what individualism and freedom means

@irene Anarchism doesn't work either though. Just look in the world: Every single modern, good country is individualistic, (classical) liberal and capitalist

@irene Also for some reason modern anarchists are allied with the marxists... Which doesn't make sense at any level

@irene what is your definition of anarchism then? I thought its just an anti-government and anti-institution political philosophy

@irene I doubt that a society without a state works, though. I mean first of all, who is going to protect the country?

@irene You don't have a country if another one can just invade without a problem either

@irene without a country, a tribal society would be at the top of the hierarchy, and as you can see from many parts in the world, like the middle east, it doesn't really work well for individualists

@bioDan That's a good point actually. Without a legitamite democratically elected goverment, there will be people to take on that role. Just not legitametely

@irene It is, but it's the legitamite rule of the majority. That's also why you have an opposition, so it doesn't get out of hand. It's really the best solution we have

@irene Why do you think that your opinion is more valid than theirs? The majority wins, but the minority still has influence. How else would you solve it?

@irene The only other solution is totalitarianism which is absolutely stupid

@irene I do agree with you on that. Mob mentality is a real bitch. That's why most states either use a parlamentary or presidential democracy, with the idea that whoever is voted in will roughly do what the people who voted for him want without doing stupid stuff

@irene I super disagree with that statement. A dictator is the worst and most naive choice you can make. There is a reason why western countries are all democratic to some degree, because it works pretty well. Dictatorship leads to oppression because he isn't being held accountable. Every system has failed except democracy. That's just how it is

@irene The fact that Trump won is proof that democracy works beautifully. Everyone in the government and it's branches was against him and he still won

@irene True but democracy (without corruption!) is still the best system. All the other systems are *even worse*

@irene Then you don't pay attention to what he does with the country. Another 4 years and he might actually have enough time to drain (some of) the swamp

@irene Exactly! Corruption will always exist. That's why democracy is the best solution because the people in charge are at least held accountable be the voting people and the opposition

@irene The worst thing you can do is put *one* person in charge of everything

@irene Then propose a better system. I don't think such a thing exists

@irene They didn't have parlamentary democracy. And yes, democracy isn't perfect. But it's infinitely better than what you are proposing which is totalitarian dictatorship. What makes you assume that a dictator would agree with *you*. And unlike democracy you can do fuck all about it. You also criticize corruption, guess what: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"

@irene I will stop treating democracy as the best thing ever when you or anyone can come up with a better solution. Anarchism doesn't work and dictatorship is maybe even worse

@irene Either you don't understand english or you don't read my replies.

1.) A democratic government doesn't agree with everyone because that's impossible. It does the best job possible though by doing mostly what the majority wants but the minority also has influence and is not ruled over.

2.) Corruption exists everywhere. Democracy is a system of keeping corruption in check. The elected party(s) are held accountable by the voters and the opposition. Therefore democracy is better than other systems where *nobody* holds them accountable.

@irene You are really annoying to argue against because you never actually address any of my points. And you still haven't given me a better system. You just keep saying "yeah but it doesn't work because x" or "something else is better" but than you can never give me an actual example or refute my points. Please

@irene The minority is less ruled over in democracy than in any other system. Please explain to me how the fuck else it should work. You don't have to name a system of government or shit like that. Just in english explain to me how you can have a society where everyone can have exactly what they want. That doesn't fucking work but please prove me wrong

@irene And *who* hires the rulers? How do you not understand that dictatorship doesn't work because *guess what*: You aren't the dictator and when he does shit you don't agree with, which is pretty inevitable because power corrupts, you can't say shit against it. And then you have *no* influence over fuck all because not everyone thinks exactly like you and the dictator will sooner than later be someone you don't like

@irene But *who* chooses the ruler. Either the people by voting, which is democracy, or the elitists in the state, *which is exactly what you don't want because you don't like corruption*. If you just let them choose for you, your opinion will pretty likely *not* be represented. Democracy is better for everyone, yes even if it doesn't currently go the way out like. At least you can change it. Not everybody can always have what they want

@irene Companies are held accountable by the government with worker laws so they can't abuse you or keep you as a slave. There is noone to hold a state accountable but the state itself. This is why the state needs to have a system that allows people to hold it accountable for it. And that system is called democracy

@irene In theory yes. The state *could* do things it shouldn't. But the three part state works pretty well most of the time and we still have the people you can hold them accountable. But atleast it's the *official* system. Would you like that the state gives *no* fucks about the people? I think something that's works most of the time pretty well is better than nothing at all. Democracy isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect

@irene No real government can be peacefully retired because that's not how governments work. When they are erected they and they alone are the rulers of the country using the system they chose.

But there is one where it happened. Post world war 1 germany. It had a democratic government that didn't have checks to protect itself and Hitler destroyed it and instantiated a dictatorship

@irene The goal of the state is the goal of the people *you* vote for. Vote for Trump and he does Trump things, vote for that idiot Emanuel Macron and he does the things he said. Sure, they might not always be truthful but that's *still better* than having someone who does whatever the fuck he likes because nobody elected him and he cannot be replaced by someone via voting

@irene Completey untrue. Look at Trump, look at the AfD, look at Boris Johnson

Even if it were 'choose your own dictator' (which it isn't): I would still rather play that than "you can't choose shit and have to take what's coming"

@irene Enough people liked him to get elected. Now he does exactly what he said. That's how democracy works. Right wingers weren't happy with Obama, now far left-wingers aren't happy with Trump. Next election they will have the ability to choose the next one they like best

@irene How egotistical do you have to be to demand that everything always goes exactly like you want? Not only is that stupid, advocating for a dictator or something similar is even more stupid because there's no guarentee that he will do what you want. In a democracy you then have to chance to replace him. In a dictatorship your shit out of luck

@irene Are you honestly calling Trump a dictator? Sorry but that's just plain retarded. He's a legitamite democratic leader. If you don't like him go vote (if you were american of course). You just sound like a spoiled brat

@irene TRUMP DOES EXACTLY WHAT I LIKE (eventhough I'm also not American, so whatever) SO IM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH HIM AND WOULD LIKE TO HAVE HIM REELECTED. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK THAN THAT'S SAD BUT THAT'S HOW DEMOCRACY WORKS AND I WON'T CRY IN THE CORNER BECAUSE OF IT

@irene If that's how you look at it then fine. I'll gladly take my democratic "temporary dictatorship" over a real dictatorship

@irene Well so far you have lost the argument. Democracy is better than all other systems. You like to compare it to a dictatorship and how that's bad and then advocate for a real dictatorship. Now that's stupid

@irene If you can't deal with not getting it your way everytime than you aren't mature enough for politics. Harsh but true

@irene America also does better than europe at the moment because of the corrupt EU which is not a democracy btw. but a oligarchy. Eastern Europe countries are also getting worse by becoming more totalitarian. America is holding up great, especially with Trump

That's childish

Here's my take. There will always be corruption and a power system where the corrupt are more powerful than the people who recognize and want to remove it. Additionally, people who are corrupt tend to seek out power more than others. In other words, democratic republics are the best choice. It holds some level of checks on leaders (well, when half of the government doesn't just let it happen) and puts better minds in charge of projects instead of leaving to the masses. Done horribly wrong, the people can do something about it.

Well that escalated quicky..

@irene , just wanted to point out that Ehud Barak was the Prime Minister of Israel for about a year and then he lost the legitimacy of the people so he stepped down from office.

and didn't Theresa May just stepped down as well after not being able to deliver Brexit?

The world is polarized. I just wish we could have a massive orgy, calm down and be peaceful again.

BTW, in real dictatorships individuals suffer much more. Just look at the torture/death count by the totalitarian government.

@bioDan I wish we could just all live our lives with equality and freedom 😔

Sorry if I offended anyone. Maybe someone can learn something from this thread. I'm out

Ahh shoot.. should've saved my H entry for here. Or maybe it's only for the best I already used it. Considering this started as Linus Torvalds xD

In his talk "Old is the New New", Kevlin Henney said something very eye-opening: We devs live in a state of constant astonishement. Because we disregard the past instead of learning from it. Imho this is best demonstrated in web development where the wheel gets rediscovered every other month.

About dictatorships. Ask Germans how that went for them.

You don't actually have to. Consider how most companies work: A CEO and his managers, in other words a dictator and his henchmen. Then read the rants on here: "My manager is making my life hard", "it sucks here, noone is listening to the devs", "looking for a new job".
OTOH we're slowly discovering flat hierarchies. Self-managing teams. Pushing responsibilites downwards in hierarchies, so that decisions are made by those closest to the information. And we're happier with it. And we're astonished that it works so well. Because we're *constantly* astonished.

We shouldn't be. Dictatorships suck, this is *not news*.

@VaderNT I didn't think your last point was even up for debate before this thread tbh

The politics discussion aside. I was sceptical about codes of conduct, this thread convinced me we need *more* of them.

I see many rants on here about how bad assholes are. Asshole managers, asshole coworkers, random assholes on the street. Ugh, it sucks so bad. But that asshole over there, he agrees with my opinion, that makes it A-OK!

I know this is "the Internet", so we'll see the best of humanity on here, and also the worst of humanity on here. And I'm still disappointed to see the cheering for assholes and the upvotes on said cheering and the dismissive term "whiners". I assume this is trolling, because factual discussions vs making others miserable isn't a controversial topic.

Oh well. Years ago we had "netiquettes", now they're called "codes of conduct", and I'm sure - in our constant astonishment - we'll rediscover them again in a few years.

@12bitfloat neither did I. I didn't find what you wrote offensive at all btw. 👍

@VaderNT I was a bit cocky at the end which I regret, seeing as I actually pissed her off. I'm just a human trying my best