I know there are a lot of “devs” out there who only feel responsible for the ‘code’ - but you aren’t.

You’re responsible for the end product too.

When you help build a steaming pile of shit - it’s your fucking fault. It’s not the boss’s fault - it’s everyone who let it happen’s fault.

These hell-holes like Kaiser Permanente and Covered California - and nearly all the government portals and the banks... and almost everything I can think of - are way past unacceptable. You are hurting everyone.

If you are putting these pieces of trash into the word: you need to rethink your life. If there is a hell, you are going there.

Wake the fuck up.

You’re going to have to use these things when you are older. Your kids will have to use them. Your parents will have to use them.

Set an example. Stop making horrible things that don’t work and hurt people.

Today.

Start changing - today.

I agree, but we both know It's usually not that simple.

Most clients care about things being delivered fast and cheap, not good. God knows I have written subpar code before because deadlines were breathing down my neck and the client just decided a feature needs tk be changed last minute, which sounds like a simple fix to him, but affects half the architecture because the systém already changed so many times that it doesn't even resemble what it started out as...

We come to an interesting duality then where everyone who let it happen is at fault, but no one would get paid if they didn't. Especially startups can't be picky about clients or projects.

Appreciate the sentiment, but it's definitely not that simple.

I've been involved in more than one project where I honestly felt I've done great work on my particular part (or my team has.) It's clean, works, well-tested, performant, all the usual.

But what that turns into from an end product perspective is another question entirely. It's completely out of my control if the boss takes that, and gives it to an offshore team to "just finish a few features" and they screw it up royally. Likewise if they take it and put the worse possible frontend on it, or decide to run it on the cheapest, most underspecced, unreliable server they can find.

The end product is so much more than the result of decent code, and the decisions to make it good or bad are almost always out of a typical devs hands.

@AlmondSauce

Agreed. So, you can get a different job right? One where you aren’t just a cog in a wheel? The last few times I had to work on a bad product I quit.

If you are the best programmer ever... with the biggest heart... and you wasted your time working for a shitty company - then you are wasting your talents and you are still contributing to creating more trash. Even if your api or your database is perfect. Take your skills somewhere else. Be more.

@sheriffderek In theory sure. But even if you could guarantee that moving elsewhere would improve things (you can't), most of the time it's just not that practical.

Sometimes it's impractical from a human standpoint. I have a great team, I've got a great rapport with them, and that's not easy to find. Sometimes it's impractical from a knowledge perspective - the project gets shipped, contract complete, and I'd be completely clueless as to whether the final thing worked well or not. Sometimes it's from a financial standpoint. I've got a family to feed, and this job might pay very well, or be very stable, or be the only one around.

The biggest one of all though - if you're happy in what you do, and you're doing good work, then you shouldn't feel morally obligated to up and leave just because others are messing up. If you go through life assuming complete responsibility for stuff you have no control over, you'll just get unfairly mentally beaten down into oblivion.

@AlmondSauce

Sure.

The guy chopping off heads should just be happy he has work and that he does it well. I get it.

You’re only obligated if you care about other people.

Morality is subjective.

Hopefully you are ever in a situation where you are reliant on something other people designed.

I'm going to guess you're a pretty young person who hasn't lived much life yet. I don't mean that as a pejorative, simply as a statement of (presumed) fact. Once you have a mortgage, and many other bills, and a family to support, and have put down some roots somewhere, come back and tell me how you're going to go jump to another job at the drop of a hat because you don't think your current project is very good. I mean, don't get me wrong: to the extent that you CAN avoid putting crap into the world, yes, absolutely, you SHOULD do that. You SHOULD speak up and push back against stupid designs and crazy deadilnes and people not caring enough to do a good job, and all the other things that contribute to bad results. I 100% agree that we have a responsibility as engineers to do all of that. But, at the end of the day, when you've got responsibilities and people depending on you, you're gonna put aside your desire to create perfect products and do what you have to do to survive.

@sheriffderek Sure, because chopping off heads is morally equivalent to designing a great backend that's run with a crappy frontend through no fault of your own 🤦‍♂️

@sheriffderek no more than a user is responsible for it since as a dev we are given no decisional power 99.999% of the times. It took freaking youtube devs to almost get fired in order to finally kill IE6, so imagine what would mean to actually cut down a money source in a f2p or bs in government websites considering the ego of the managers.

This world is fucked and we cannot do anything about it, my friend... If you really stop and think about the industry you realize there are just too many issues. Starting from HR, passing to ux being a joke and ending with managing being about producing soulless crap which pays.

Honestly get panic attacks when I lose focus and start to ask questions about "the next job", cause deep down I know the issues are the same everywhere.

@piratefox It’s a bummer that so many people feel this way.

@AlmondSauce Well, they both hide behind a mask.

@sheriffderek eh, I'd say it's a bummer our economical system forces us to produce crap and rewards exploiting other humans... Feelings can be handled

@fzammetti I’m pretty sure you’ve replied with this “you sound like a young person” many times. I’m 39. How old are you? What is hard to understand? If you are part of a team that makes something shifty - then you are shitty. Get another job / or just accept that you are part of the problem. If you are 18, 30, 45, or 102.

@sheriffderek This is, in fact, the first time I recall ever replying to you personally, and I don't recall EVER replying with a "you sound like a young person" on ANY post. Sounds like you got it all figured out though, so I'll just bow out. Stay safe.