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The worst part is that the genius fix was an elaborate and unnecessarily complicated way of doing what my last resort idea does plainly. I realized that an hour later (because despite logging off I couldn't log off mentally). Hence, the rant.
Notes to self:
Thinking back on it I guess I could have used polished phrases like: I don't want to do a sloppy job in hurry. But on second thoughts, he would have just followed with patronizing, 'take rest, start tomorrow.' There is no clean way out of this? -
@Fast-Nop Technically, yeah. But I find the resulting drama too awkward. Even when I simply said that I'll work Monday, the guy reacted like I robbed the clothes of him.
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@iiii we were in conversation from earlier and since this guy is going on vacation for the next week and is managing this feature, I sympathized with him and worked the extra hour so that any discussion points he might have would be cleared up.
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@molaram ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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@TrevorTheRat not at all! Compensatory tine off must be confirmed beforehand.
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@TrevorTheRat good idea but it should be negotiated beforehand, especially with a difficult boss.
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@electrineer yeah it should be before hand but it sounds like it’s too late for that
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@anux it was not agreed beforehand so you don't work on weekends. Period.
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@anux was the overtime pre approved?
Honestly, this sounds like an old boss I used to work for, that 1.5hr of overtime will gradually end up with 5+ hours a day and you working 80+ hours a week. As someone that's done that, dont!
There's an acceptable amount of overtime, sure, but once you exceed that 1 hour mark, it's tomorrows problem - unless of course production has completely burnt down and your the only person that can deal with it, otherwise fuck them and fuck them early before they fuck you. -
Great start, I'm sure as it becomes routine you'll gain charisma to negotiate. I know this kind of stuff is pain to discuss with superiors, especially since you probably like your profession and enjoy programming on general. Congrats for standing up for your rightful compensation, how much you enjoy the task itself should never be a deciding factor in your salary per actual hour spent with work.
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@C0D4 oh yes I've been burned already. Earlier because of such nonsense I ended up working 17+ hours a day on the regular while also working weekends.
(see my last rant here: https://devrant.com/rants/4710877/...)
Now I keep it to regular hours only and I think that is why he was so uneasy. But fuck him. Not working extra. -
@lbfalvy thanks man! This is the exact problem. The discussions are more than painful because of his dramatic and indirect way of talking.
I just hope it doesn't become routine and next job is somewhat better. Yes, I'm leaving this place soon (that's another rant of its own).
This place has put me in a weird state. I wasn't this socially inept but here I am. Getting better now. -
Back before I had a moral compass…
I rendezvoused with HR lady in the coffee area and made sure I got there before her. I was bracing on an empty table looking in distress.
“Are you okay?”
“I don’t know.”
She asked some probing questions and I made her coax it out of me.
“My romantic weekend plans were interrupted because of sudden unexpected overtime. Karla thought i was brushing her off because it was the first real romantic weekend we had planned. I couldn’t say no to the overtime and now I am just wrecked over Karla. [Inject details about wonderful fake Karla] Karla says that I had my chance and isn’t responding to me.”
HR lady heard “He didn’t feel comfortable refusing overtime on short notice because of autocratic management.” I decline formal approach because of the fallout.
HR talks interdepartmentally from top-down. The managers got mandatory trained super hard. Extreme caution about authority. Rare overtime and always feather gentle. -
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@anux I do it still but in an honest transparent way.
Big boss trusts boss to manage the team in a sane way. It is very bad for big boss to replace knowledge workers and have knowledge gaps from turnover because he won’t meet his objectives. Boss management is important to big boss. So send an email to big boss like this.
Today I agreed to a 10 minute after work courtesy meeting after doing overtime on X issue. The short meeting turned into a longer meeting. The meeting outcome was that I was assigned weekend overtime. I cannot sustain current levels of overtime indefinitely. I am not in a position where I can comfortably refuse overtime. I need to manage my own life and well-being after work. I think that boss needs to move management and work to work hours; please consider providing coaching or personnel to accomplish that.
Short, factual, simple, and requests a specific outcome. That is how executive emails work. -
@irene this is solid advice where big boss is reachable and understands their priorities. Unfortunately in my case, it is company culture to work extra hours. They have a huge attrition rate but they think it's just plebes who can't survive their 'meritocracy' culture. 🙄
They are ridiculous and up their own ass and proud of it. -
I work exactly 40h/week and if I exceed that, then I will either use that time to do other stuff during work hours, such as bringing the car to the shop etc, or I will take a day off.
Worked for a company and free overtime was basically the business model. You need to understand that you are worth something on the job market and such companies usually belittle you to make you feel like you are not. But once you realized that you are actually capable it's time to say "no".
At the end it's your life and your time, so only you will be responsible to make sure you spend that time in the best way possible. Nobody else is gonna do that. You mentioned awkwardness due to conflicts - so what, you gift your company almost a workday per week or more?
Basically you have two options. Either learn to say "no" - this can absolutely be done professionally, read up how. Otherwise, if you know that you cannot handle conflict - get into a better environment which involves quitting.
That or suffer. -
@Maer thanks for taking the time to say that. It is brilliant.
I hear you and as you might already know by now, this situation is new for me. In last few years I never needed to be so blunt as I need to be now. I was able to manage and say no because I was in a decent environment.
All the fluff aside, I have quit and I'll be out of this mess soon. -
@all
I truly appreciate that you're sharing advice and pretty concrete ways of saying No. I really needed it.
I just got invested in the wrong place with the wrong kind of people.
Nevertheless, it has helped me to reflect on my career and I have quit this shithole.
No real idea of what I'm gonna do next but it's a relief. -
@anux You quit? Like just today?
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@irene No I had quit earlier. That's why I said it's a whole other rant. 😅
...
..
Basically I realized how shitty this place is so I quit before this new incident. So they were acting all nice (as in not making a fuss when I logged off after working fixed hours) because I had quit. That's why I hinted they were trying to gaslight me. I'm basically serving an unnecessarily drawn out notice period. I shouldn't even be here at this point. And this fucking idiot got mad that I didn't want to work extra.
I'll share the whole story later but this is the gist. Few more weeks of this bullshit and then I'll be free to find another shithole.
I'm sorry for the confusion in timeline. I was focusing more on the ridiculousness of the last incident when I made the rant and didn't at all expect the supportive comments. -
@anux We are devs and feel your pain. You are not the first one to go through this sort of shenanigans.
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Been there done that. Unpaid overtimes are shit. Before you work for unpaid overtime tell them that you will offset those hours on Monday. So if you work 8 hours of unpaid overtime then the whole Monday will be offset so you will not be required to work on that day.
Where do you live? Because you've said that have unpaid overtime culture? Let me guess India?
Before your next interview ask if they pay overtime. If they don't then ask if the overtime hours done can be offsetted on other work day. If they don't do offsets then search for another job. -
@Devnergy technically they have a policy of paying for overtime. However, overtime needs to be approved by project manager and I doubt if it happens even in case of work from office.
More than anything it was the unrealistic expectation and unnecessary drama that riled me. 'It's getting on my nerves.' Who says that? That too for a problem which doesn't have a clear solution.
This place is really toxic in more than one way. People don't stay long here. I'm just hoping I won't have to share any references from here in the next job. -
@anux if overtime needs approval then don't do overtime if it is not approved yet. If it is approved with pay then do overtime?
Do they want you to do overtime first before thinking if they will approve your overtime? Then that's a trap. -
@Devnergy it's a trap yes. Basically from their pov, "we're paying you salary and this work needs to be done. It shouldn't be taking this long. So it's on you."
There is no logic to it other than egos and politics. The guy who expected overtime, expected it because he had committed a delivery date. The PM wouldn't agree to overtime because the client won't pay for it because the delivery date is actually not that early. All in all it is just poor resource planning due to poor EQ and lack of a collaborative culture. There is no navigating it in a cordial manner. The question of overtime doesn't even come up. It's always just 'this has to be done.' And it is not just me. The recruiter who recruited me asked me is there's something wrong because a lot of people are leaving, esp new hire.
Heck, this same guy asked me rhetorically once if I'm leaving because of him. And no, they don't take feedback. They ask for it but it is always in a defensive way. Even then, the nut that I am.... -
... the nut that I am, I shared feedback on some of trivial things to this guy. This guy got really defensive and was just short of fuming. I could see his moustache twitch and teeth grinding. I'll say he considers some feedback after uselessly lengthy discussions but only for very trivial things. And this is better than what I experienced with the manager and a couple of HR guys.
My take is that they are just full of themselves and don't really care for feedback or people because they pay them. Overtime considerations, work life balance, etc. are irrelevant and only for pansies with no real work, not for these machos, real grit, nutless fucks. -
Also I didn't work that weekend, and I continued to not be unavailable after work hours. A couple of days and ignored after hours texts later, this guy tried catching me just an hour before day end in order to keep me engaged. I however, through a mix of luck and cunning managed to maintain work hours till he practically begged me to stay for a bit. I gave him ten minutes and no more. And since then he has been very respectful of my time. But I know this is a charade again and it will break at the slightest pressure from PM.
I wish I could add more details but I don't want to give myself away on the off chance any of the old farts are here. -
@anux get out of that environment. They will repeat it again. No wonder many people are quitting there. Just continue upgrading and learning new skills so you will not bet dependent to them.
So for your next interview don't forget to ask this:
You: do you have overtime pay?
HR: No
You: Do you have offset for the unpaid overtime?
HR: No.
You: Do you have overtime pay?
HR: It needs approval
You: Do I need to wait for approval first before doing the overtime?
HR: No. You do overtime first before we decide to approve it or not.
You: Thanks for your time. Good bye.
The job contract should state overtime pay or offset so you can present it when needed. Don't agree to verbal only. -
@Devnergy yes I'm getting out. I already had a couple of first round interviews and there are more in the pipeline. I felt a whole lot better just by quitting even without having any backup offer.
Thanks for your tips, I appreciate it and will try them out.
I was just waiting for it to happen. The gaslighting charade finally crumbles.
Tldr: was strongly asked to work overtime again for no reason, refused it (weakly, but it is a start).
(Boss isn't actually my boss, just my unofficial lead at the moment.)
1.4 hours after regular work hours:
Me: boss, this issue is still not resolved but I am out of ideas for it. Already shared my last resort idea twice with you but you don't agree to it. If you are available I can meet you for a short call before logging off for the weekend.
.
10 minutes later, just as I am about to log off.
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Boss: let's meet. The problem implies something wrong with your code. Let's check.
Me: [ugh] okay
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Boss then rambles on about a juvenile nsfw joke to describe the situation and I force a laugh, we get to the topic. I manage to explain the situation despite the interruptions from him. Then he shares his genius idea. We agree it might work but the implementation will be slightly tricky. It is now 2 hours outside of work hours.
.
Boss: can you try it out and let me know if it works?
Me: sure, I'll try it out on Monday and keep you posted.
Boss: Monday?!! Look, it is getting on my nerves now, this has been going on for too long (false, since the issue is from a day before not a week before and I had asked for help multiple times before today).
I don't even know what big boss is going to be like. This needs to be done.
Me:. ...
[ You manipulative asshole, I'm not doing overtime for you, I owe you nothing and don't give a shit about your senile nerves. Fuck you and your shit codebase and clusterfuck development environment which makes the hairballs in a public toilet look well engineered.]
Look, it is difficult for me too...
Boss: If not now, I can accept weekend. Because I don't know how big boss will take it. You understand right what I'm saying. This needs to be done.
Me: [Fuck off scum chod! Take your acceptance, fuck it hard, and take it away with you! ]
Hmm. Let's see what can be done.
Thanks for your help.
Logged off.
I can't express the tone of his righteous rage in words.
I have never had to face such revolting attitude before from people at work. I just don't get how people can be so ridiculous. The whole team is filled with chodebags of different sizes.
rant
fucking chodebag
little wins
how do these people get chosen to lead?
perhaps more to come later