*opens DevRant*

*sees Meme about how bad language xy is*

*closes DevRant*

Is there nothing else one can laugh about? Does it always have to be hate? Well... it's about rants, but at least hate your own language. Not others for theirs. That's their job. Amen.

Yes! So much YES!
I can't stand it to hear this superficial shit. If you can descripe deeply to me, what sucks at this language, then it's maybe entertaining to me. But don't tell me the same old shit, I heard a thousand times.

If you want happy, go to SO. Oh... Wait.

Why do you hate XY?
Sure, K is not the nicest language out there, and stack based languages have a reputation of being hard, but XY is a decent stack based array language family.
(Can't believe no one else made that joke though)

"Language X isn't suitable for what I do, therefore language X is terrible, and the people who use it are idiots".

And then it's usually these same people spewing nonsense like "non computer people are muggles". -_-

Who gives a fuck?

I mean honestly, you can reverse this and say why do you care if someone hates on the language you like? You're so offended by others sharing an opinion that you can't tolerate it?

People bash PHP, the language I use, almost every day. I laugh it off.

And just to be clear, I respect everyone's opinion. But that's what our voting system is for. This is devRant. The rants you describe are well-within the boundaries of being acceptable rants. Might you dislike them? Sure, and you're entitled to. But that doesn't mean you should be able to tell anyone not to post them.

And your original post is just a gross, gross exaggeration and it pisses me off. Show me a screen shot of the feed you saw. It was literally only people "hating" on specific languages? Obviously that's a ranted about topic, but hardly even close to the frequency you imply.

@plusgut described it perfectly. It's not about a pure "opinion". It's about how you show off your opinion.

It just doesn't make sense to me why you should post a rant having nothing more than "lang xy is shit". Well, haha, I loled very hard, but now tell me what is your real problem with this language? Otherwise just shut up. Do not pollute the devRant feed with your nonsense bullshit. These are no good rants!
Rants - IMHO - are long texts about a problem *you* have, becauz of REASONS! Everything else is not entertaining. Everything else doesn't add a molecule of shit to anything. Everything else is just bullshit.

See this comment? I didn't write "people who hate dev languages for no reason should leave this planet". That's bs noone cares about. I described what my problem is and threw several "fuck"s in there. Done. A rant.

That - btw - is not a problem of devRant, but of programmers in general.
I feel real humbled that you took this as personal offense, @dfox, but this is becoming a rant-ception. I rant about people, who rant without reasons, with reasons. And you suggest, that you could easily inverse that? What? Saying who gives a fuck and obviously give a fuck about this yourself? Get some consistency going m8 ;)

@Dargmuesli thank you, you described beautifully what I meant.

And I agree what you said about the general developer community as well. I don't go to my local hackerspace anymore, because I get looked down at. And they can't even say why they dislike web-technology. It's so superficial and even hypocritical, they say that while they are browsing stackoverflow and whatnot. They just say it because it's chiq and they think they get cooler by saying it.

There are too few people of your kind kind @plusgut ;)

Don't let them drag you down with their bs. If you choose to stay away from your local h4ckersp4ce because of that, that's a pity but totally understandable.
It's the same in my HS. I take it as a challenge and still visit it every week. If I cannot learn things about programming from people with destructive comments, I can at least learn a thing or two about the social side. How to filter bullshit, to notice when it's appropriate to ignore others and when to shut up, because of an endless discussion with fellas being unable to accept arguments.

Not everyone is like this. But those who aren't just don't make that much noise. They state their opinion. Reasoned. And dive right back into their projects.
Code together with those people! It's the way to go :)

@Dargmuesli you are probably right :) thanks for the encouragement, I might actually go there again.

That's very nice of you.

@Dargmuesli my point is, this app is called devRant. I don't disagree with you that hating on languages without good reason isn't a strong argument isn't effective, but the bottom line is people are allowed to do it and we shouldn't try to censor them. If you disagree with them you can state why, vote, etc. but it's their right to post it. It's not off topic and it doesn't break any of our rules.

Again, I'm not disagreeing and it's not how I'd make an argument, but sometimes its people just blowing off steam. And like I've told people many times, you're not going to enjoy every rant on devRant and you're not going to agree with every rant. If you did, that would be extremely boring/worrisome.

@dfox you sure as hell shouldn't censor it, but I believe it's important to say that one is disagreeing. Only that way we can have a culture of discussion. And that way we might are getting to be better versions of myself.

Just to add, just because people trash languages doesn't mean they aren't open to discussion here. I've seen many productive discussions.

And like any community, for any language, you'll find a lot of people who like it.

@plusgut I agree, and I'm not denying that. But we can't force people to do it. The only other option is censorship of rants we don't think are "argued correctly."

I'm open to hear solutions but so far have heard none.

And just to add, I read almost every rant. The subject here really doesn't happen that often. Maybe a lot of Windows/Linux, but specific languages? Rarely. When it does, it's normally actually someone who is using the language who doesn't like it. Really not sure what we can do about it - that's a rant...

@dfox nobody says that we should force them, to stop doing it.

And my solution would be to just tell them, that there rant has no substance. Nothing more, just tell them.

P.S. yes at devRant are not lots of rants against languages and I like that a lot. I was refering to hackerspaces and the developer 'community' as a whole.

@plusgut and that's great - it can't hurt to let them know. But my point is, the reality of any developer community is you're always going to have individuals who feel strongly about languages and which ones they like/don't like. You can engage with them, like you've suggested, or ignore them and not get involved in "language wars."

Personally, I usually find the arguments on both sides pretty petty anyway and I try to just ignore which usually works very well :)

And just to clarify my point too: It was never my intend to advise censorshit. I'm not sure where someone said something like that, but I'm sorry if that pissed anyone off :3
Personally I find those "opinions" extremely annoying, because they lead to decisions like @plusgut made. To not visit a local HS or something alike. I think before someone reduces him/her social interaction (censors his-/herself) because of bullshit, you can seriously tell the others to shut the fuck up.

@dfox, I get your point, but let me suggest that you still take this way to personal. Again, it's not a problem of devRant itself. And therefore idk why we talk about censorship. Your app is a great representation of programmer mindsets and those are not quite... constructive @ all times, you know? :)

@Dargmuesli "don't post stuff like this" is a direct form of attempted censorship. I'm not saying there's no justification, and I personally don't support those kinds of rants, but again, I don't think people should be told not to post them. It's a slippery slope and that's why I avoid it and think it's dangerous when users try to tell other users what kind of content is acceptable and what kind isn't. That's what the voting system is for.

One day someone might come along and say the kind of rants you're posting offend them, annoy them, etc. But unless it violated our rules or terms, you're allowed to say it as you should be.

I don't want anyone to get deterred from any kind of development/language, but I think it's even more important people get exposed to ideas and opinions they don't agree with and ones that might "annoy" them.

I didn't know that telling somebody to stfu is an attempted form of censorship. Now I feel like an authority that my "stfu" is valued as such an attempt. No one has to give a fuck about my advise to care about other people ;)

@Dargmuesli peer censorship is a very real thing and in many cases more effective/damaging than what an authority might say.

And I'm not saying that was your goal, but the original rant (with little justification provided) does come off like that IMO.

I think it's a valid point and argument, but the original rant was a poor way of saying it and could have been exponentially stronger without a message of "don't do this because it annoys me so much I can't even use devRant" and instead arguing more generically why arguments against specific languages should be better articulated in general.

I think our position are quite clear now. But let me ask you one question, so I can confirm I that understand your position correctly:

According to your explanation, is it ok to post the following rant?

"I hate jewish programmers."

[That's not the case for me, just an extreme example that I did *not* find on devRant! Just theory. Don't get triggered.]

A simple yes or no as answer is sufficient.

@Dargmuesli are you serious?

I clearly said a rant can't violate our terms of service. That blatantly would.

Also, can you really not differentiate between blatantly hateful rhetoric targeting specific religions or races vs. rhetoric that is mainly harmless emotion (ex. disliking a programming language) that pretty much every developer feels at one point or another?

@dfox, yes, I'm serious, that's why I asked.

Could you explain to me what the difference is? One thing is unreasoned hate against users of a random programming language. The other thing is unreasoned hate against people of a random religion.
In one case you see the danger of censorship in the other it's already gainst the TOS.

I totally get why hating someone based on religion is wrong. Because there is no reason. But why do you panic when reading that unreasoned hate is generally a problem?

@Dargmuesli you can't be serious. One is an attack on specific people having nothing to do with programming and having no relevance to this community.

"I fucking hate PHP" is a normal reaction that many developers feel at many points in their lives and devRant is where they can express it.

Do you randomly just "hate Jewish programmers" at certain points in your life?

Also, your argument is utterly insane.

I've never seen a single user on devRant argue "I hate the PEOPLE who use PHP"

They say they hate PHP, a programming language. An inanimate non-human object. Get a grip.

No, I'd never say this. As well as I'd never post a comic strip along the lines of "Could there be intelligent life on planet earth? 'I use PHP'. The search continues..."

That's not even hate against PHP, it's against the users. As if PHP users would not be intelligent.
I mean, you show me that that's a lie. You are intelligent, you can discuss with good arguments. And you use PHP, so what's that triggering nonsense in programmer communities about?

@Dargmuesli I make a pretty great living writing PHP. I get what you're saying.

Yeah, PHP is a running joke in a lot of cases. But I've also seen many in this community support it and call out people who trash it. But it's a programming joke. I really have never seen it as there's ill intentions.

And I don't disagree with you. Does PHP deserve all the hate it gets? No. Does it deserve some of it? Sure.

But here's the other thing. There are a lot of jokes about PHP. But there's also a lot of jokes about other languages, like JavaScript. People constantly point out the ridiculousnesses of JavaScript and they certainly aren't wrong.

So I think you really have to take it with a grain of salt. This has always been the case in the dev industry.

You know what definitely wouldn't be OK? If PHP got a lot of shit and people weren't allowed to make fun of JavaScript and other languages. But everything is fair game here and everything gets made fun of. And I'd say usually it's in good fun, rarely vicious and almost never targeting the actual developers, more just the language.

I get what you mean, it can feel belittling, but everyone's languages get made fun of I think. And all you can really do is educated people when those topics come up of why they maybe should give more love to the language they are saying they dislike.

@dfox, nice that we meet here. I knew you understand what I mean. :)

What I mean is the difference between *unreasoned* and *indirectly-reasoned* hate. Of course hate against programming languages are always partly reasoned. But some hate builds on top of the reasons being known. For example: I didn't know what's wrong with PHP until a few weeks ago. Until then I only heard things like: "U use PHP? Oh my God, how can you?!". And I'm sure there are many newbies who are afraid to ask why and just feel like they've made a wrong decision.

I just have a problem with the fact itself, that unreasoned hate is around in the dev world. People should make the effort to explain their hate, then there's absolutely no way to get confused and everyone can learn from the others.

@Dargmuesli yep, and I don't disagree.

I'm really just saying, IMO, telling people not to post it isn't going to change minds. It's much better to politely question for people who do post stuff like that, "why do you feel that way, here's where you have it wrong I think."

Nearly all of the people trashing PHP are people who use PHP either actively or in the past, so they generally have their reasons whether stated or not.