@sariel questioning things is a disruptive act. All systems run smoother when people are lapdogs and conformists. Until they collapse.

@Fast-Nop your doctrinal orthodoxy and dogmatic adherence and absolutist stances along with a disparaging of others in any other context would be red flags for something, and it's not related to anything good.

This site isn't "devrant" it's more like deal with a bunch of snotty nosed egotistical amateur hacks. You people are all garbage frauds.

@Fast-Nop you're honestly arguing for the necessity to create artificial barriers to success because you feel developers don't have enough to do and the chance of a product's success is too high?

I'm so glad I'm leaving the industry after 25 years. Ya'll are bonkers.

@Fast-Nop that's assuming infinite time and resources. Permit people to make the decision to not care. We don't need child safety locks on every technology.

@sariel duh, it's not some profound insight. That's brazenly obvious. What if you're doing something irrelevant, say puling down a quiz on which celebrity is the cutest to display in a SPA ... who cares in this case if your Access-Control-Max-Age is set wrong? It's just irrelevant.

@Fast-Nop And, what's the problem? Let people shoot themselves in the foot and stop being a hall monitor finger-wagging everyone from some high horse. The dominant developer attitude has somehow become to design systems as a tutelary babysitter presuming every other programmer needs to be chaperoned around like they're oblivious barely cognizant drooling morons.

When you design for the ignorant you disempower the competent. Fuck that.

@theabbie oh nonsense. some things are benign and there's nothing to hack yet it constantly breaks because in this instance, some dumb plugin misconfigured Access-Control-Expose-Headers causing a UTF-8 document to be interpreted as ASCII causing a parsing error with internationalisation on some pages on some browsers on some machines.

It was so easy to find, such a devious security loophole! Can't leak our precious "charset=utf8" Give me a break.

@Fast-Nop wait, you claim it's intentionally made to be difficult so it gets properly done? Is that how humans work? The more difficult the thing, the more people succeed?

Fascinating....

@jespersh lol, improper CORS won't leak cookie data. Obviously you don't understand CORS. Don't worry, almost nobody does, the design is the problem.

@petergriffin Mindless pavlovian responses to cliche cargo cult programming aphorisms isn't "knowledgeable" ... you must be the type of person who after reading one book calls themselves a scholar.

@Ranchonyx personally I prefer competence over dogmatism. But do you!

@100110111 it's like talking to an antivaxxer. The person is totally pilled.

@theabbie that isn't spanning a single company. This is experience over multiple projects and an analysis of the trends, costs, overruns and deliverables and looking for patterns to avoid disasters from repeating.

The most noticeable indicator was certain libraries and tools which seemed to always be there for the problem projects and mostly absent for the successful ones.

I was stumped what they had in common for years until I happened to start reading about cults.

@theabbie Please look over the claims about time and resource allocation above. I've used react for 7 years and done plenty of cost/benefit analysis on it, was involved in a company with a venture funding round of capital centering on delivering an application built in it.

Running the financial and resource allocation of the cost of react-based applications is something I'm extremely familiar with.

@theabbie it looks like only 1 of your 102 repositories on github even uses react and the one that does involves 4 people, about 5 weeks of work and it appears to be a CRUD app with a comment feature.

So please, be a bit more honest.

@theabbie thanks for the disparaging elitist reply:

"Cults see themselves as the enlightened, chosen, and elite. They are unwilling to analyze the material or historical realities surrounding their claims."

Please seek some help.

@homo-lorens I'm not your enemy. I really hope you have a great afternoon.

@homo-lorens right, low tolerance for uncertainty, naive idealism, disillusionment with the status quo. You probably followed a guide that did the gestalt therapy of hot-seating.

You may even feel guilt or shame for not using it and see accomplishing things with it as almost a "prize" you have to "achieve".

It's pretty standard indoctrination techniques, sorry to tell you.

@homo-lorens btw some things didn't exhibit this tendency.

Here's some signs. If the tools

remove or make impossible core features of a language such as debugging and syntax

require extra steps (essentially 'permission') to do core things

uses non-specific language and don't describe concrete relationships

frequently pivot to new methodologies

is all-encompassing and can't be removed

If the programmers
obsesses over code purity and are unwilling to entertain working solutions

worry more about pleasing the tool then solving the problem

believe colleagues who dissent about or don't use the technology are lesser then themselves

insist that simple things are truly complicated in the real world, but only the technology makes it so

think inability to produce is due to their own inadequacies as opposed to deficiencies of the tool

want to change project organization around the tool

are emotionally hostile to other technologies in the field

refuse to work with other technologies

@homo-lorens I've had to use it off and on for about 7 years. Released products with it, sold companies with software using it, ran teams where we did it, personally coded it myself.

I've ran lots of measurable studies. Maintenance man-hours, time from first-release to stability (where I can take someone off fulltime from the product) QA hours and team size necessary etc.

modern html, css, javascript with a bit of server-side php or python performed, depending on the metric, around 20-100 times better.

In project planning projections, I was generally allocating 4-7 developers on a react project and used months as the metric whereby in the non-framework solutions it would be 1-2 devs and the metric would be days.

Given the recent focus on cults I started looking at it with new eyes about a year ago. Everything unfortunately makes sense.

There's nothing to "win" here. You can't convince people to turn away with facts. They're in it for emotional and social reasons.

@theabbie I ask you to sincerely think about the "react takes minutes". Next time please time yourself. All the debugging, documentation reading, managing of dependencies, testing, and coding. All of it. You'll be really surprised by the results.

Do this exercise, take it seriously, really. A bit of honesty will go a long way.

You know how to contact me if you need to reach out.

@black-kite one more thing, if wikipedia isn't your thing maybe you can look at a good reference for narcissism over here: http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/...

Programming projects are part of human culture and exist as social institutions like anything else. They don't sit outside the entrapments.

Everyone thinks their particular passion *does* exist outside the entrapments btw, so claiming that programming or X is different and *actually* does is the exact expected pattern of denial.

It doesn't. Frameworks and libraries are human institutions built by humans run by humans and comprised of them. It's a social creation of what Fred Brooks called "pure thought stuff" .

The 1950 computer book by Norbert Weiner, "The Human Use of Human Beings" is a pretty good discussion on this dynamic. I recommend it if you want to learn more.

@black-kite my apologies then. If you qualify your claim like I did with something substantive it'll be much easier to take such a claim seriously.

@black-kite there's something called projection. Please look into it. May be important for you. Have a good day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

@theabbie my email is my name on here followed by gmail.com. I'll keep everything completely private if you choose to reach out. Hope your day is well.

@theabbie I'm here if you need someone to talk to. really. I don't know if there's a dm feature here. but reach out any time.

@100110111 if what I'm saying is true then what these people really need is emotional support and social connection, not combativeness.

Attacks set them up for retrenchment and push them deeper in.

^^ Like what just happened there and VV down there.

@platypus Here's another example. This is from the Heaven's Gate Cult.

It's a promise of enlightenment, a silver bullet that will make you the diamond in the rough. If only you join, you will truly ascend into the elite special secret world. This is Nirvana. Everyone is happy here.

Come, use framework X, join us!

@platypus cults shift their own positions all the time. The doomsday cults make dozens of apocalypse predictions and then regroup. Look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

One of the signs of a cult is a profound *inconsistency*. The fog and confusion is intentional.

Also programmers fit the common profile for cult victims as characteristically lonely and socially isolated people.