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This is a problem that is being discussed for thousands of years, even before Christianity was invented:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/... -
@tosensei and that means that believing in and praying to that kind of god would be pointless anyway. And the explanatory value is 0.
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@Lensflare also: why pray at all? an all-knowing god should _know_ exactly what you want and if you deserve it, anyway.
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@tosensei yeah, the more you think about it logically, the more it falls apart.
I kind of understand people who believe in god because it makes them feel better.
But I absolutely don‘t understand people who try to use logic to prove that god exists. It‘s sad. -
@tosensei Praying, praising, fasting, giving thanks, not shaving the sides of the head and large etcera is done for remembrance.
For instance: remembering that nearly all scripture contain some form or basis of law, as in a criminal code, that one should not transgress.
If you agree with the laws of some specific tradition that's another matter. But the point is that the concept of *not* breaking the law, and the myriad promises of divine punishment for those that wilfully break it, is right there in the cover, so to speak -- one cannot possibly miss it.
The "problem of evil" is mere philosophical idiocy. If you know the rules and still break them on purpose, with the explicit intention of causing harm, then you should pay a heavy price for it. Simple. Every culture has some concept of this.
But if the suggestion is that we should have no will of our own, so that breaking the law isn't even possible, then I strongly disagree: that's just an even greater affront to humanity. -
@Liebranca you forget that evil and suffering not only comes from people and their decisions.
There is also natural catastrophes and plagues, etc.
The question why a god would let this happen or would actively cause this is still valid. -
@Lensflare The elements have no morality. Fire burns, and fire can kill. Water, electricity, earth, rocks and certain gasses can also kill.
Should none of those things exist, so that no disasters are possible? Should we have no stomachs, so that we cannot die of hunger? Should we have no emotion and no nervous system so that pain cannot even be processed?
How about not being born, then? How about no worlds whatsoever, so there's only void and no one ever knows grief?
Sorry, but pointing at the very necessities of anything remotely approaching reality as if they were an evidence of evil is nothing but a path to nihilism, so I can't respect the argument to begin with. -
@Liebranca bullshit. So when a meteor strikes and kills your wife and children, that’s perfectly fine? Is that a necessity of life?
An omnipotent god could prevent this. And a good god would. If god lets this happen, then god is either not omnipotent or evil or just doesn’t care.
Or… much simpler: God doesn’t exist. -
@Liebranca "Should none of those things exist, so that no disasters are possible? Should we have no stomachs, so that we cannot die of hunger? Should we have no emotion and no nervous system so that pain cannot even be processed?"
well, i don't know about you, but...
i am firmly convinced that an "all-powerful, all-knowing" creator deity _should_ be able to to create a universe that permits free will, but _without_ earthquakes.
i mean - i can conceptualise it, and if i, a mere mortal being, can imagine it, then surely an all-powerful being could _create_ it...
otherwise, it wouldn't really be all-powerful, but subject to some higher rules - which would not make it "god" in the meaning of a benevolent creator deity.
so the remaining possibilities remaining are: 1) "god" hates us, 2) "god" doesn't give a shit or simply 3) "god" doesn't exist. -
@Lensflare @tosensei That is certainly a lot of fixating on a name and attributes I have not mentioned once.
I don't know anyone so self-important as to believe they should be protected at all times from all and every danger and unpleasantness by an invisible hand. I can't even call it a childish notion, it's just silly.
And if you had such a benefactor, yet cursed them, condemned them as evil and then denied their existence the very moment something bad happened to you, it'd simply be the pinnacle of ingratitude.
Or to imagine oneself as capable of wrapping their mind around the bottomless complexity of the universe, when we can barely figure out our own insignificant place in it, and then procclaim "I could do better", as if that wasn't the most ridiculous delusion of grandeur.
Pretending to deserve what you can't give, to know what you don't, to do what no one could...
I swear, there is meaning behind all things, as there is a lesson for each and every blasphemy. -
those are attribute that are implicitly tied to the name, and the name is explicitly strongly tied to the concept.
also, it's not "the pinnacle of ingratitude" - it's simply criticism of very sloppy craftmanship.
and the fixation on the name is important, because how exactly you define (and therefore call) your concept of god decides whether the concept is 1) logically impossible to actually exist, like the benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient "father in heaven", or 2) by necessity irrelevant - like the flying spaghetti monster creating the whole universe 20 minutes ago, or 3) just a fancy wording for "lol, i don't know, random chance" - like the ineffable big mastermind whichs reasoning we just can't understand. -
@Liebranca also, the lesson for any blasphemy is this:
"god is either dead, or okay with us taking her fucking name in vain" -
@Liebranca so according to you, god, a being so powerful that it can create our world, so incomprehensible to us and full of complexity that we can’t even begin to understand… but god can’t prevent horrible things from happening to people who didn’t do anything wrong? I mean he DID create that world and then he is powerless to do little things like this? Yeah, that totally makes sense.
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@Lensflare @tosensei Those are your own concepts, not mine.
The suggestion that there should be an intervention for each and every catastrophe, or that such catastrophes should not be at all possible in our world, has only been made by you.
And the idea that absolute lack of suffering in the world is a requirement for there to be a good, caring, or one at all, has only been put forth by you.
In my view, good being __real__ is enough. My belief, and my concept of good, doesn't depend on such overly fantastical and idealistic readings.
I am not about looking at hypotheticals, but rather at *this* world, and telling you what I think of it as it *is*, without getting on what cannot be proven or disproven.
You both seem to wrestle against the ghost of a religious tradition I'm unaffiliated with, and that I know solely from previous conversations in a similar vein, as if you knew for a fact what I believe in.
And I don't think you do. -
@Liebranca I’m just presenting you the logical implications and you choose to ignore them like a good believer.
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@Liebranca "The suggestion that there should be an intervention for each and every catastrophe, or that such catastrophes should not be at all possible in our world, has only been made by you." - no. it's a logical necessity of the premise of an omni-benevolent and omni-potent being. aka: what most people claim "god" to be.
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@Lensflare @tosensei Yet I made no such claims during this conversation. I mentioned law, free will, the neutrality of nature, but I never said anything of sparing every soul from suffering being a requirement for benevolence: it may be the entirety of your argument, yes, but it's simply not my view.
I don't expect you to agree, as you have your own beliefs, and I dislike the kind of mindset that would make one so blinded by arrogance as to declare himself the logical side in a conversation centered around such matters.
So I'll stop here, and if you wish to continue, please do me the favor of carefully reading the exchange we've just had first, just so I don't have to keep repeating myself.
Alright? Okay, good fun.
God = Evil.
.
.
.
It is almost 100% true that God exists and he is the creator of this existence
Seeing all this complex existence is proof that God is all-powerful
But seeing evil even in nature is proof that God is probably NOT all-loving
God might be the greatest deceiver, far greater than Lucifer
God, might not be All-Good
God, might be 50% evil, or at least 1% evil
In this case should we worship such God, even if he really is God?
Suffering in my life is extreme, and some people have it worse
All of the innocent life forms suffer while the evil thrives. What kind of a Fucking "All-Loving" God would design existence to be exactly like this?
Even if he didnt design it and if its the product of our sins or evil, what kind of a Fucking "All-Powerful" God would sit back watch and ALLOW this pure terror to spread more destruction without him stopping it?
Are you fucking kidding me?
"If God exists, he would have to beg for my forgiveness"
- Craved on the concrete wall with hands and nails by holocaust victims
The nature itself, wild dogs and hyenas eating warthogs and zebras and deers etc alive--remember that an All-Loving God designed the NATURE itself Exactly like that
"But the bible said our sins caused other animals to violently kill each other in the nature"
So that means God said "Oh you silly humans who ate the apple, now I'll punish you and all the Innocent animals who had nothing to do with your mistakes. All of u will pay now!"
???
Or why do kids die in bombings.
"Free will"
Ok why do kids die of diseases? Also free will
"Its just a test of faith of their parents"
So that means God was like "i love you my sweet innocent 4 year old child, but you'll gonna die now cause ur parents didnt have faith in me so now ur gonna be punished"
?????
Im so fucking mad and confused as a christian
The job thats mentally taking a toll on me has caused this existential crisis for me
The stress im having is so large i dont understand how i didnt loose my hair by now
Stress in exchange for 8$ a FUCking hour
DIE ALLL OF CANCER
THE CANCER THAT GOD ALSO DESIGNED
"SATAN DESIGNED CANCER NOT GOD"
WHY DONT GOD KILL IT. GOD ALLOWED THE POSSIBILITY OF IT TO EVEN EXIST!!!!
....
...
..
.
.
Literally think about it. Evil wouldnt exist if God didnt trigger the existence to form. SO WHO IS AT FAULT HERE?
If i develop software for terrorists to use to hack america and they use it to fire nuclear bombs which kill billions of people, they are at fault BUT I AM ALSO AT FAULT FOR GIVING THEM THE ABILITY TO DO THIS!!!
If Crocus Hall Moscow terrorist attack killed over 140 people, and someone gave them a free getaway vehicle to escape, the shooters are at fault BUT ALSO THE GUY WHO GAVE THEM THE ABILITY TO ESCAPE!!!
HOW IS THIS NOT COMMON FUCKING SENSE
IF GOD ALLOWS EVIL
= GOD IS EVIL
IF GOD FORMED THE EXISTENCE IN WHICH EVIL IS POSSIBLE TO EXIST
= GOD IS EVIL
IF ITS MORE IMPORTANT FOR AN ALL-LOVING GOD TO FORM EXISTENCE WHERE IMAGINING A NEW COLOR IS IMPOSSIBLE BUT IMAGINING TO DO EVIL IS POSSIBLE
= GOD IS EVIL
Remember? "We are created in the image of God" according to the bible. So if we commit evil, sin and fail so miserably that means we are the mirror of GOD?
Change my fucking mind
The more i live
The more i earn money "fairly"
The more i look around
The more i realize
Something is FUCKED, UP, HERE.
Something is WRONG here.
An all loving God allows evil to enjoy this life more than the life who is good and on his side. It appears as if the more you side with God, the worse your life will get....this is fucking unbelievable to me
If i committed atrocious illegal acts by scamming or stealing millions of dollars I'd live a much better happier healthier wealthier fucking life than working $8 an hour at a corporate job, miserable AND FUCKING DEPRESSED!!!!!
rant