Svelte is if an unfinished sneeze was a framework.

bless you!

You really miss all the boilerplate from other frameworks, don't you?

I'm not the biggest fan of the new rune stuff but still find it miles ahead of react

@kamen I don't use frameworks. I just write raw js

@BordedDev miles ahead of react in what exactly? In fashion? Maybe. In scalability and performance under load? Not a chance in hell.

There is no room for magic in the realm of engineering. Whatever framework had the most money/time/trial and error behind it will be the fastest, the most scalable, the most useful. React is the king of frameworks, and it will reign supreme, using things like Svelte as free testbeds for radical ideas. It will then absorb what works and discard what doesn't, leaving the small guy dead in the dust in the process.

Frameworks are so zerg.

@kiki react performant? In what universe? It's always been the slowest on all benchmarks I've ever seen

Professionaly I use React. I also used Preact and Vue on the projects.

Never found time for exploring Svelte.

I also use nextjs profesionally but i don't like it.

On personal projects I am using Astro with islands, pinch of react or raw js here and there. Fast and reactive, chef's kiss!

No downloading 2mb of js for showing homepage.

Also PocketBase rocks in combo with Astro. Realtime data works just fine with those 2!

@devJs I download 0 kb of js to show the home page.

@BordedDev have you tried both? Benchmarks mean nothing in this context. No one calls the same state update one million times in a row, that's not a scenario anyone will ever encounter. React is almost infinitely optimizable just because of how flexible it is. Svelte is not.

svelte has less tech debt than react

at least the code in the docs acts like it says and no one told me to reinstall my whole operating system because I couldn't get the tutorial app to work like the instructions say it should work

also in my experience all websites built with svelte have pretty good performance. not really that much junk in there unless you start sequentially doing s bunch of async calls without caching the data or something

angular feels the slowest to me though, slower than react

and vanilla html/js loads fastest still but it's pretty close in most cases

@kiki React is very inflexible and has major footguns causing slow performance. And yes I've tried both, Vue as well, and react is still always the slowest. Even just the first page render is slower. Don't forget that svelte gets compiled down to "vanilla" js and doesn't require the whole framework to be loaded

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@BordedDev yeah svelte has a lot of optimizations now

they pre-cache the pages into various forms if you configure it

actually the docs mentioned using svelte on embedded systems? lul
that's how focused they are on performance i think

but the pre-compile stuff is a little confusing, it's basically an optimization so I don't really count it as "base svelte speed" -- you can mess it up and have to design around it a little and all that

@jestdotty Yeah, it can be a bit annoying, I was more referring to that there isn't a svelte.js file that gets loaded in combination with all your code. Especially if there is an auth layer between I tend to skip the pre-render step, but I have also done the work before to load the user into the server to act as if they are logged in before as well

@kiki React requries 10 times the engineering effort to improve because they lack a compiler and they navigated themselves into a corner where they can't build one because they must remain compatible with Babel and co. They don't get to decide when they create datastructures for state or context because the moment they find out that you have some is the same synchronous moment that they have to give you the initial value and the setter. They diff the dom! You literally encode it in custom syntax, the exact set of values it depends on, and the ways in which it depends on them are declaratively stated, but because they committed to JSX and others rely on it too, that information is locked away from them.

React in an exercise in bad API design because besides the concrete algorithms employed to solve two tasks, DOM diffing and update scheduling, it can have exactly one correct implementation, and that implementation is fucking slow.

I like the motivation behind svelte (simplicity) but I hate the execution of it

The worst thing about the JS ecosystem is magic. Things just magically happening somehow, somewhere in the background without you really knowing or having control over it

Svelte is purely that. It's literally the worst way they could've designed the framework

@lorentz and this was the plan all along. The economy needs more jobs, react does exactly that while managing to be fast.

I love wars about which way to make websites is the worst 😂

@12bitfloat oh that's what I hate about rust

that things don't just magically happen 😒

I can't code them to just magically happen either. aaargh I'm lazy goddammit

@kiki Except it's slow XD

@jestdotty Do they really though? :D

Rust is pretty "what you see is what you get". Maybe except deref coercion

@12bitfloat I mean traits do some crazy things that are inferencial

@kiki In that case what are you even on about?