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I once booked a meeting room in my old place of work to attend a phone interview 😂 I havent had to deal with an in-person interview because I happened to be on leave the day I had one.
If it came to it I would probably just take a day or even a half day off. Its none of their business what you do with your time off. -
I don't actually get how your questions are related to your women rights issue.
Of course nobody likes it.
Then, I get it, your friend got a better offer even with your best ever negotiation moment. Sucks.
But then again, you are a developer. You work with data. Imagine this as you are prod and your friend is staging, you can't actually correlate what happened because the env were not « exactly » the same. So, to me, saying « I got offered less because I don't have a dick » seems a tiny bit far stretched.
You also don't know what happened on the company side during the recruitment process.
Also it obviously depends on what kind and size of company you have been exposed to.
In EU, if you are a woman you are almost guaranteed a « yes » in any startup because that looks good for fund raising. I'm not popping this from my ass, it's experience.
Don't get me wrong, there are discriminations but maybe not as easily put as « woman bad. Woman paid less. »... -
I suspect they decided that you were more junior than your male colleague, and based their decision on that. That seems to be what happens in my experience - women often seem to have a much harder time proving they're fit for senior roles.
But yeah, I hate the pay negotiation thing even as a man. I just avoid it - unless you can tell me at least a salary *range* upfront that's sensible, I'll likely walk. Even then, I'll have a figure in my head of a number I won't drop below, but I'll go in hard for the upper end of that high figure every time.
In reality I wish I could openly say "Hey, I'm looking for a job with F#, great working environment, at least 160k, and 10% bonus", then get honest offers along those lines, but in reality we all know that'll never happen. -
@AlmondSauce Right?! This is how I feel about it. It's very strange that we have to be constantly watching our backs in these negotiations instead of being allowed to spend our energy on the actual work.
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@WeAreMany What's interesting is that I didn't say why they offered me less, I don't know why. But you're right, maybe that was a potential reason.
I think assuming we're reading an argument we're already heard before clouds our ability to have direct & rational convos. I understand the line of thought isn't immediately obvious to you, but for the sake of clarity it's probably best to stick with what was said.
Interesting note about the EU startup pattern. I too have noticed that women do get hired for the sake of "diversity" quite often, at a significantly lower rate of pay. It's a win-win for the company and a win-lose for the woman, every time it happens. -
@BrokeTheInteger It's a dog eat dog world, and generally who negotiates best wins rather than who produces the best output. I wish it weren't that way, but it's what we have.
Same reason sales people get paid so much for the simple task of blabbing about the product in a confident way. It's not because they're more useful than the dev team, far from it. They just pretend that they are, and have the negotiation skills to command a premium compensation package. -
@AlmondSauce I agree that the reality is the best negotiator wins. That's why I took two Harvard negotiation courses and practiced methods with my friends who always get their asking salary.
Despite getting the recruiter/company to bump the offer by $30-50k, it still often falls below market level and it's hard to know what more can be done. I think it's fair to say that a ceiling sometimes (not always) exists, as ugly as that sounds to even say. Negotiators look for weakness and sometimes there's one thing they see as a weakness that you can't change. -
@WeAreMany You get a "yes" in any startup you interview for… I’ve pretty much been hired at my own job just cause I’m a woman, and how do you think that feels? I always feel inadequate. It probably seems really whiny I guess, like yeah I got a job boo fckin whoo, but if it’s to be a diversity hire, it fucking sucks. Like, I hope sometimes to have the skill in order to be hired for my capacities and not to meet some damn quota, fantasy or to further an agenda. I always doubt myself and I wish I could just be a dude doing his thing, instead, (even if it’s most likely not needed especially where I work, and I’m aware I’ve got my own self esteem issues here) I always feel like I have to prove myself. Like I’m just bringing the team down and I don’t deserve to be there, but I am because I’m a woman, and some bloke who’s probably more talented or smarter than me could’ve had the job instead. I dunno. I wish it wasn’t like that.
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@WeAreMany you missed two things.
First they had the same experience level.
Secondly, the recruiter said the company could not go higher.
But they obviously could.
And not it does not have to be the case, but it all to often is and $100k is a pretty big difference after one interview with the same experience.
So its quite safe to assume that there was a bias. -
@T33th The problem is that these "forced diversity" type tactics make things even worse, as they just mean that people are hired "just because", everyone pats themselves on the back for having a diverse workforce, and all the women / black guys / disabled guys feel like they've not earnt their position and they're just there to tick a checkbox.
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I dont know what backgrojnd the company was or what not, and I'm definitely not about to start explaining away your experience. What i will say is that I've had this experience from different company cultures; if the brand of the company needs to be perceived a certain way and i dont fit that narrative, then I'm either disqualified or offered less than my colleagues.
One of the things we should keep in mind is that every company is unique, and 100k is really a lot of money to lowball on someone. That doesnt sound like gender discrimination, it sounds like criminal activity. I would lawyer the fuck out of them if i were you, but its hard in LA where there are so many protections for these companies given by the government.
Regardless, if that company is shitty, sue the shit out of them and i hope you win large sums, but to extrapolate that behavior to the world doesnt follow logically. I get that there's shared experience but it's still a large inductive jump -
Racism and sexism takes a big part in how this works.
I once applied for a dev position, me having already the required 3 years of experience, with recommendations and everything for a particular dev role in a big bank here in the U.S. I got notified that I did not meet the profile, this even after I tailored everything into what they needed from cover leter to cv etc, had the experience with the stack and everything.
A fellow friend from college with a common white name applied, with less experience, no recommendation and admitted lack of knowledge in everything dev (he got the degree, but he did not need to work and thus just didn't care, but applied out of boredom) AND he got the job, when he told me about it he mentioned that he believed that it was a case of racism and ageism since he was older even though he admitted with no sense of pride that he was way beneath me in knowledge (I saved his ass multiple times during school) -
@AleCx04 is your name habib or patel?
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@aviophile real name is close to the Habib one, why?
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I just tested the employer-changing waters earlier this year. I think in general it's fine to keep it a secret if you're looking at changing employers. Even having interviews during your work hours and such is fine as long as it doesn't impact your work delivery. Just make sure you talk to your current employer first before accepting any new contract, either just for out of respect or to keep things fair.
As for negotiation... here in my country recruiters always ask 2 important questions:
1. What is your current salary?
2. What is your asking salary for the position you're applying for?
I always ask for 10%-20% higher than my current, as a general rule (even more if it's a step up). If I'm changing allegiances, the payoff has to be worth it. Never be afraid to ask for more if you feel you deserve more.
And that recruiter who called you? She probably thought she could get away with offering less because it'd make her look good to the hiring manager; well, she can fuck right off. -
@AleCx04 reference to your another comment in a topic about sexist jokes.
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@aviophile ah yes, and here I was happy that someome used the same reference. You see, where I live we say "algun Juan", meaning "some Juan", kind of a play on words with "someone". The majority of the population (including yours truly) is Mexican, and we say it that way on account of how common the name is on Mexican males. Me saying Habib or Patel was taking the jab at common names in other places
Just interviewed a guy with ~8 years of experience:
Me: *Asked him to write a simple algo logic on a paper*
H...
This is more of a rant with a question within:
It's International Women's Day and I did not see this hitting me like it is lol, but I have a question for my fellow devs all over:
Do you actually like the system of developers making up fake doctors appointments (or whatever) to go interview with the competitor because they don't feel appreciated at their current company?
Do people actually like sneaking around and telling lies and constantly having to prove yourself to new people instead of just having a process in place to rectify the situation where you work?
And do you actually like having to spend so much time and energy negotiating pay so you don't get ripped off?
I know this happens to all of us, regardless of how we identify. But I once had a recruiter call me the day after she talked to my best friend, a male dev (same experience level), and using his same techniques that we practiced together, she offered me almost $100k less for the same title she offered him the day before, despite the strongest negotiating of my life. She insisted the company simply could not go higher. This affected my friend almost as much as it affected me-- this really does happen. We're not making it up. Sometimes not even the best advice can change the reality.
Shit like that is just depressing, and reminds me that it probably wouldn't be that different if I went somewhere else anyway. But I'm wondering if you like that hustle, or if you too wish it wasn't needed.
rant
hustle
interviewing
international womens day
negotiation