For new Linux Users...

blender is a piece of junk compared to 3ds

@BindView so is gimp compared to photoshop... there’s a reason these fuckers are paid a shit tonne, and obviously more money for them to put into the software.

That’s not to negate the great work done by those open source/freeware teams, but you just can’t compete in that kind of market without that kind of money.

@jamescodesthing yeah i would be the happiest if i could make models without throwing a bunch of money out the window but blender doesnt really help

@BindView standard, but yeah... turns out paying someone to work on software full time, a team of people even... leads to better software.

I know at least one designer who prefers gimp over photoshop. Next to that I used to know quite some people who preferred blender over anything else in that software category.

I only have experience with gimp really.

At least it's something. It may not be amazing but it's something.

Sadly most of these are nowhere near the level the "original" ones

@linuxxx Yea but how many designers do you know that prefer PS over gimp? It's like saying "I know one guy who prefers meth over carrots so meth must be better than carrots" 😄
I kid

@linuxxx I’d love to see a CV with gimp on it. It just sounds like fun.

@Froot well, I’d better take up meth. Ain’t no way I’m eating a carrot.

@jamescodesthing There's probably a couple is some design company's rubbish bin 🤣

@Froot Actually a few. They say that the learning curve is higher than photoshop but after you get the hang of it, it's just as powerful as photoshop. Also, not having to pay for gimp makes that they can save that money :).

@jamescodesthing But carrots are awesome! Cmon man! 😄

@linuxxx I don't think the price of PS is any concern to a professional designer. In fact, I doubt it ever even comes up for them.

Also the "if you put time into learning it it's just as good" argument is bullshit. Why would anyone do that? Why waste time on a thing that provides no reward. See above for the money side of it.

Also, PS is way more valued on the job market so it just makes sense to learn that instead of gimp. I never understood why gimp didn't just go and flat out copy PS as much as they could. They'd do well in the free PS clone niche

@Froot That argument is bullshit? I happen to know (used to know, lost touch) some designers who also where very fond of the idea of open source software. It might be bullshit to you but definitely not to everyone.

Also, check out GimPhoto (or PhotoGimp? I keep forgetting the order). It's uit looks a lot better than the 'native' gimp and I personally find that the learning curve is a lot lower there :).

For Adobe and gaming you will still need windows in 10 years. Sad but true...

@Froot ahh but meth is so more-ish.

@linuxxx: I’m calling bullshit.

@jamescodesthing Fair enough, call bullshit :)

@jamescodesthing May I ask why, though? Not everyone thinks in they same way you or me or whoever does :)

@BindView I disagree, have you used it recently? it's very much keeping pace with the commercial competition.

Grabs popcorn bag 😄

@linuxxx Well yes.
Of course people might have religious beliefs about certain things but that doesn't mean these things are automatically better.

@Froot Haha. Luckily open source is not a religion :). I never said it was automatically better though, I just said that some people might prefer certain software over other software, whether you understand that or not!

@nbamaral Good idea, about to mention someone.

@runfrodorun help me out here buddy!

@linuxxx I understood 😄
It's just that such preferences are often not backed by strong evidence but rather by subjective things. And that's fine, I have such preferences, everyone does. ☺️

Shiiiiiit. Why'd you have to turn this into another one of these wars 😄

Because it’s bullshit @linuxxx.

You’re biased to the point of lying either to yourself or just to me.

Adobe CC is the standard, not least because if the software fails, adobe assumes responsibility... and companies don’t like liability for the software they’ve chosen to use.

You can look up graphic design jobs any time, the first 3 postings I found all name adobe cs/cc... and I’m sure if I kept going the rest of them would too.

Adobe and Autodesk spent the early part of the millennium buying out their major competition... both companies hold their respective markets.

It’s just bullshit.

@Froot Depends on what you'd define as evidence in this case :).

Oh and don't worry, I can easily manage this on my own but my day has been long as hell and I've got a huge fucking headache so not quite in the mood for discussions ;)

@linuxxx Understandable. Long days do that to you ☺️

@jamescodesthing I never said anythying about standards. I solely said that I know (used to) some people who prefer GIMP over PS. That has absolutely nothing to do with Adobe CC or even Adobe in general. Because I know god damn well that Adobe and their products are industry standards.

A good example is (No, I am not saying this is the case for even a majority) my last internship. A quite profitable company which did actually use PS and other adobe products. But, they did solely use LibreOffice :). It wasn't about open source for them but it saved them thousands in license fees every year and the boss liked that because of saving monies.

WPS office might be better.

@linuxxx If it works for them them more power to them. Optimizing away stuff that is not your main business makes sense if doesn't degrade the working conditions too much (kind of on the fence on it about libre tho 🤣)

@edensg in august, yeah

@Froot What's wrong with LibreOffice? It was compatible enough with Word for them (for clients), completely compatible with Google Docs (they used that to edit as well sometimes) and it saved them loads of money! Tbh I've been using it as a word replacement for years now and 99 percent of my documents are fully compatible with Word so it works just great :D

@linuxxx, you’re backpedalling... the text is right up there ☝️

“I know at least one designer who prefers gimp over photoshop”

Now it’s “people” not designers, and you used to know them... but don’t anymore.

Bullshit.

“My dad’s a race car driver”

@Maverobot As for free as in price software, it's pretty good, yeah! As for open source software, well, it's not open source and this list (the right side) consists out of free as in open source software (licensi gratis means free license I thought)

@jamescodesthing I'm not backpeddling, just tired as fuck. My word choice might be bad timing but oh well.

Going to stop my side of the conversation now but hey, thanks for the discussion :)

So I use blender and I enjoy it... Does that make me a weirdo? 😶

Software being open source is just a quality of that software, as is a good UX, good licensing, good customer support, etc. To some companies or people this quality is of higher value than to others - that's ok. But you shouldn't ignore it when judging the software.
Being able to do whatever your want with the software, to brand it, to develop tools for your personal workflow can be a huge bonus.

It might be more relevant in the case of Blender than Gimp or LibreOffice, because it's more apparent that the former aims primarily for a professional market - Blender is currently at least on par with alternatives like Maya4D in its capabilities and once you've understood its UX concept, it's not a big deal to get deeper (measured by the complexity of what you are doing with it).

What I would like to see is a chart for going from Linux to Windows. xterm, bash, tmux, gcc, perl, python, sshd, remmina. They all have crippled facsimiles for Windows, but they're all crappy compared to the real thing, on Linux.

Regarding LibreOffice: it's fine for 90% of the Office tasks I have every encountered, so I'd consider it pretty solid.

One tool that hasn't been mentioned yet are free mail clients like Thunderbird. It might not look as nice as Outlook for instance (which is fixable by theming) but it's way more compatible than the former.

That's one big bonus of Open Source in general - compatibility is often a lot better than with proprietary programs, because those try to force you to use one specific ecosystem (like Microsoft, Onedrive, MS Office 356,etc. - or Android, Gmail, Google Drive...).

I honestly wish people would stop making claims of software like gimp being an equivalent to Photoshop, it just causes disappointment.

@linuxxx I know Gimp is a great software, but I really can't use it.

It's like Libre Office, I have it, but I am not able do deal with 90% of my work files on it.

@brunofontes Fair enough, just use what works for you :). Never said it works for everyone ;)

@linuxxx I am not saying that. I got your point and I would love to be able to use them. :)

Tried to use gimp instead of Photoshop...
*20 minutes later*
Using Photoshop via WINE

@brunofontes Oh I know, that came out wrong, sorry! Just mentioned it because i know some people think that I want to force everyone onto my stuffs or something similar and I don't want to :)

@kenogo We are developers but we have other things to do with our time than to co tribute to every OS project under the sun. Also there's the question of languages. As a web dev I can't really do much about libre for example, not that I would even have time to.

Time is the most limited resource we have 😉

Only if you like mediocre. Don't get me wrong​, they're ok, but I'm not downgrading.

I would replace gimp for krita and inkscape for gravit designer.

I am happy that there are free alternatives, for me as non-commercial user gimp and blender worked great when I was making small games when I was in high school. I must say though that they are no comparison to photoshop and 3ds. I think its great to have the free alternative and great that we live in a time were just massively complex systems are free and open. But to say they are equal is stretched a bit far in my opinion. Not a professional user though!

@Froot I also have to pay the rent. 😞

too bad no one added a "ps: .." to their comment.

Ps: I did

@linuxxx do you mean gimpshop?

@kenogo wait 40$ just for the theme or for the whole word suite? do you see how irrelevant 40$ are if it comes to getting the full office package? I would pay that any day to get tools where I don't have to first shit my timeschedule just to make it work or have the designs I need, stop being so blind, nobody gives enough shit about contributing his free time for most of it, thats why theres such lack of anything, themes, functions etc.

Why would I re-implement everythkng if there is already a stable build out there what the fuck? people are honestly getting out of hand with their OS bullshit.

@kenogo, @Froot I agree with @froot on the first part, I have very little motivation to improve a software that I'm barely using - I rather stick with using the standard software for that, where I can find help, tutorials and professional support and focus my energy on the things that I want to improve.

But @froot, the argument about a web developer not being able to improve gimp? What's that all about? A developer should never be scared of learning the language a task requires.

@ppetermann So you are saying you would like to use your own time towards things you would actually think are valuable or important, but tell him to learn a whole new language just to improve some generation old garbage?

@JoshBent nice spin.

There is a difference between "I don't know that language" and "I don't have the time/focus/interest in learning a language"

You should not compare these tools, people then expect tgat they will get something for free on a simillar level to some nice, dark skinned with awesome UI Adobe tools and then they get punched in a face with something like Libre Office. I mean it gets the job done, but for god, try doing something more advanced or try to open some heavily formated spreadsheet without killing yourself. Same for Inkscape, Blue fish, Lightworks... Only GIMP is somehow useful at this moment but its still on a level of Corel 2006. Even the updates, I am not sure now but shouldnt there be some huge uldates to version 3 like an year ago? All these tools are not alternatives but just temporary replacments. For us, programmers and server admins Linux is actually really good system, but for 99% of the population it is nowhere close to good for dauly usage...

@bahua
Not perl, it works fine in both platforms. I use it every day in either system. Why do you say it's crappy in Windows? Just curious, not getting on this discussion 😇

@CopyPasteCode I disagree completely. For power users it makes a difference which OS they're using and which tool they're using for common tasks.

For example at my mothers' school they are using Linux and LibreOffice on all media rigs (Laptop + projector) - and it works great.

As long as someone only uses a computer for Office (for anything not very specific), browsing, mail and images there is no problem in using FOSS tools.

If you have special use cases it depends - sometimes you might not be able to use Linux (many design related jobs require you to work on a Mac), sometimes you might be required to (many software development jobs).

@nbamaral

Activestate and cygwin. Activestate scripts can't be used elsewhere, and cygwin, while highly appreciated in Windows, is a hackish compatibility layer that runs entirely in software, and has its own awkward install.

Like I said, they work in Windows, but not nearly as well.

@starbear gravit designer looks slick. Didn't know that one... 👍

@bahua
Yeah, I agree with you there, activestate is not what it used to be.
And always disliked cygwin stuff.
Try http://strawberryperl.com/ :)

@theCalcaholic
It's only look unfortunately.

@BindView I disagree as well. Blender has become very mature and there is a relevant and growing professional market around it.

You should definitely give it another try if you didn't recently.

Don't expect it to follow the same concepts as the competition (which have each their own). I actually prefer Blender's work flow. It's a bit less intuitiv in the beginning, but it allows you to become faster and more productive than the others (at least as Maya 4D) when you get more familiar to it.

It feels very rewarding once you get the hang of it. 😊

@theCalcaholic
I've worked intensely with blender for many years.
Hell even for splice and audio videos.
What workflow? It keeps changing shortcuts, menus, important toggles get moved or renamed.
Who can keep up with the philosophy of the jour trying to get work done!?
An interface that you have to pan and zoom it's a mess.
Results are great, and it's a fun program to play with and explore, does a lot than it should, but looks like someone lost sigh of the main purpose.
The name is spot on though 😀

@nbamaral Panning and zooming? Don't you do that in any 3D modeling software? I have a hard time imagining it differently.

During the last months I've actually been excited for any update and in my experience really work flow breaking changes don't happen often (last had been maybe more than a year ago for me).

@theCalcaholic
I actually fear updating it now :)
Pan is fine if things aren't moved, hidden behind new toggles, etc.
Visual memory is important.
Maybe a ESR version would be a good idea, along a "screw you all, now it's done this way and pray we don't change it again" 😀

@nbamaral Oh! I was referring to the 3D view. XD

I don't know where you ever needed panning in the menus (so you use a particular small screen, maybe?).

Not really, a standard 24"
But doing nodes and materials, or mapping textures, even bones,you need a lot of panes simultaneously and it gets crammed quickly 😄

@theCalcaholic

@nbamaral Oh I see. Bu the nodes editor is basically the best thing of Blender imo. It's amazing how well organized you can create complex materials, effects and even animations.

Of your feel that you're zooming and panning too much, you should probably make more groups - that helps a lot to organize it and keep it pretty.

@runfrodorun I agree with most of what you wrote, but please keep down the caps lock! It's hurting my eyes and makes me and others less likely to consider what you wrote.

@runfrodorun
It depends on the demand, if a critical enough mass is reached, oss products excel.
Take an example, despite a very good base (this was years ago of course) to start from - intellicad - a good autocad replacement never really appeared for Linux.
There are toys or highly specialized cads, but nothing as productive and generic. Take it from me, I tried them all, even the US army ones they open sourced.
And sound, don't even start me on that.
When I first used Linux (I'm older than most of you) there was oss and native drivers. Things got a lot better when alsa finally was usable, someone decided to fuck it all up (redhat) and bring that monstrosity of pulse audio and audio got shitty again.

@JeniEm Of course they can - but that's not what this discussion is about.

It is more about if there are reliable, comparable FOSS alternatives to certain proprietary tools and if they are actually usable for the same tasks. There is a lot you can say about it apart from plain opinions.

@JeniEm
Of course. I use both. I have a legal adobe cs5.5 suite, but if I want to script I'll use gimp.
I have corel too, but for svg I mostly use inkscape.
That's the beauty of our days, you can choose, choosing sides is useless, you're just locking yourself out of options.
I remember when gimp first appeared as a demo for gtk. Before that there was nothing.

@nbamaral What do you work on in regards to audio, by the way?

@theCalcaholic
Oh, I rarely work with audio. Just basic stuff, so audacity does the job for me. Sorry :)

@nbamaral Ah okay. :D
The same applies to me. Except for the occasional arranging with LMMS (so more music than audio - but there are overlaps obviously :P).

@runfrodorun I don't think there's anything bad about using proprietary software - be there OS alternatives or not. The only software I only recommend to get as FOSS is privacy and security related stuff.

I mean, people need to eat, they are working on some software which provides good value - why shouldn't they sell it (and make it not completely trivial to steal it)?
And why shouldn't you use it if it's good?

I mean I know you can earn money with open source software - but that might not be for everyone. What you usually sell in these cases is support, courses and so on (or you collect donations) - which means you need a certain amount of customers to be able to go in that direction.

TLDR: Why not let people sell their software and also buy it if it's good? For example I don't use MS Office, because it's not worth the prize tag for me, not because I hate it.

@runfrodorun I'd like to give another longer reply to that, but unfortunately I really need to sleep (right now it's 4am where I'm living). :)

Hopefully I don't forget to reply "tomorrow" (== today but after some sleep).

@runfrodorun :D I would never say that.
My hosts file (of the Windows system I keep for gaming) looks like this for a reason: https://imgur.com/gallery/DTTWK

@theCalcaholic pastebin? I have some setup too but maybe I am missing some

Kdenlive though

To give options, WPS Office is also good. Although, recently, I have started working on new files on Google Docs, Slides etc. That way, I am assured a rather consistent experience with ability to share in multiple format.

@BindView Totally wrong.

I read in omgubuntu site that there is a way to install Adobe suite using script

Aint Inkscape an alternative to Illustrator?

@JFK422 it's an alternative to any vector based drawing tool. So yeah it's s also an alternative to illustrator.
This is becoming a bit of a flame war. There are open source tools that are superior to there commercial alternatives. Firefox is infinitely better than anything "e" logo Microsoft creates. Arguably Linux is better than Windows (depends on usecase and preference). Sometimes it's just a specific task its better at. I believe that our graphics designer uses Gimp for creating ICO files. I would not touch CSV files with Excel.
The tools can be used as an full blown alternative; they might not be as efficient or what you are used to. Sometimes they are even better. It's a nice list for new Linux users.

@JoshBent you and the majority of the industry son.

Not to mention that that $40 becomes more like $10-20/head in a bulk commercial contract. And that the consumer $40 allows you to say “I have experience with this” when you go looking for jobs, even though most just pirate it making it equivalent to them.

That $10/20 goes towards paying a fellow software dev’s salary, looking after their family, making sure they can also lead a happy life.

I find that the most interesting part about all of these OS touters: they’re arguing the “free” part to people who get paid to make software. If all software was OS we’d be out of jobs. If OS software was really that good, I wouldn’t be able to pay my rent.

It has its place, it’s cool, I do contribute when able to open source projects. Usually in the js domain because that’s what I’m fucking awesome at.

The truth is; companies take advantage and fuck over open source devs. Redhat made its money off of Linux and didn’t pay it forward to the devs. Oracle are trawling the fucking world looking for projects they can try and close and sell... when that doesn’t work they switch it to a “community vs paid” format, closing some of the source and fucking up the development of the software.

There are people literally making their money off of a mention of webpack, but the site and it’s documentation are still rough as fuck because nobody pays it forwards.

Open source software is a wonderful concept, but if you yourself aren’t personally donating the equivalent of that $40, then what are the chances everyone else is?

You might as well call it freeware and make sure and say a prayer for the developer when you sit down for your tea, because the fucker might end up needing it.

@ppetermann I liked your point but sometimes it’s “I don’t have the time to learn that language”.

I had to concentrate on an angular or react stack, choosing one over the other for my own personal development. Because there’s that little time. I’ll now catch up and learn the other, but it’s risky.

Prior to that it was MEAN and before that SASS, ES6, and the list goes on.

To stay ahead in this industry you are constantly learning, unfortunately that means learning the OS dev’s language of choice might not be highest on my list of priorities.

I contribute towards JS projects when I can, obviously with a priority towards the ones that I use.

But my company, like lots, has an IP policy... to keep my job; sometimes I can’t contribute.

@theCalcaholic wonderful point.

I noticed a considerable difference in my workflow moving around OSes. My ability to develop quality sped up, and that puts me at an advantage.

@ppetermann Well that takes time. And time is one thing I'm always short on :D

@runfrodorun Is "DDG it" phrase now? Hmm... I'll Google it...

🤣

@jamescodesthing as I said, it's not the same argument, and at that time he had made the "can't" not the "no time" one.

@Froot fair enough, I'd still recommend to learn some basic c..

@ppetermann fair play son, enjoy your Friday 😄

It’s fucking Friday everyone! Wuhu! Friday!

(Disclaimer: apologies to anyone who works the weekend)

@linuxxx thanks for the explanation. I just noticed thoses small words. Guess you are right. Anyway, I wrote there just to let more people know of the awesome alternative to office. :)

@runfrodorun Microsoft writes malicious software? How is that grounded in facts? Seems like a pure opinion to me unless we disagree on what malicious means.

@jamescodesthing Agreed with your post about languages, OS and learning priorities.
It's all a game of staying ahead of the industry, fall behind and you're doomed to some 9-5 number punching job

@Jop- Is MS trying to pull identity theft on you or steal your credit card info? Are they spreading cryptoviruses?
Our definition of "malicious" is very different it seems.
Also note that I'm not talking about the privacy aspect in general, I'm talking about malicious code

@kenogo @Jop- I consider stuff that is illegal and whose sole purpose is to harm you malicious. Malice, you know

Also I need to look I to that Windows keylogger thing. It seems a little overblown but i won't say anything till I've checked

@runfrodorun @kenogo I must admit this debate over malice has gotten quite out of hand.

Let me just end by saying that I don't doubt that MS spies on people. I'm just not sure that "malicious" is the right word for it ☺️

@runfrodorun As for commenting. Yea it's a long post. I did the same once I came back after a while 😄

@Froot @runfrodorun @kenogo Judy tapping in on the MS part as I just saw that a part of the Dutch government finished their investigation into MS's windows 10 data collection.

According to dutch laws, the way they are collecting data with windows 10 in the Netherlands is NOT legal, it's too privacy infringing and users should have way easier options to opt out and be able to opt out completely.

@runfrodorun Alright, finally I get to it. :P

I wanted to mainly speak about the "software to betray their clients" topic.

I don't completely disagree on that topic. Many companies include questionable stuff in their products or are ignorant against certain flaws - either for profit or because they don't care about these things enough (which requires enough of their clients to not care either).

However, I don't think it's fair to assume attempted fraud or malice in most cases. Usually these products have a valid reason to exist and be used: many development hours have been invested in making them good and useful.

((continued))

@runfrodorun

And yes: some of these tools might spy on me or might not guard my privacy enough - but they still aren't primarily a spy tool. In most cases there probably wasn't even a bad intention behind it (I consider earning money by targeted ads in a payed product a bad intention as well, especially if intransparent) - in many cases it's just what @bittersweet would call 'datageil'.
While this is still inconveniant I think it makes more sense to regard it as a drawback to a software which should be evaluated together with its other advantages and shortcomings. In some cases this might be enough to not use the software no matter what - but those are rare (for me that's Whatsapp for example - collecting all contact data from my phone without consent is just a few levels to much).

((continued))

@runfrodorun

One thing that irritated me a bit. You stated that companies have 'A TEAM OF PSYCHOLOGICAL ENGINEERS FIGURING OUT HOW TO DESIGN THE UI TO MAKE IT /LOOK/ PREMIUM AND POWERFUL'. That's only partially true and for most parts a good thing. They don't make it only feel 'premium and powerful' but they are also payed to create a intuitive and efficient UX. If a software's UI looks and feels good, that's definitely positive. It's not a fraud by any means.
I'm not saying there exist no fraudulent techniques in UI design, but these are usually focused on *actual* fraud (like hiding AGB from you, etc.), not making the software look better than it is.

@runfrodorun

Everyone is trying to make as good looking software as possible, because that's one aspect of quality software.
I think that that could indeed be a problem of some FOSS projects - simply because more programmers are involved in FOSS than designers (in my experience). So there might be less people to do the work - but I've got no statistics on that either. :)

Of course that doesn't mean that there isn't FOSS software which looks great (especially if an Org is backing it up). LMMS, Nextcloud, Firefox are examples for very good UX (imho).

@linuxxx Yep, at my university many facilities are not allowed to use Windows 10 because of the data collection.

@theCalcaholic Were you also dutch?

@linuxxx Nope, German. :D

@runfrodorun I guess my point is: I can agree in some cases about malicious attempts (FB exploiting unstable mental condition for ads for instance), but I can't about such proto- or stereotypical statements.

@theCalcaholic Do you realize though that the FBI officially has the authority to hack into any device in the world? (this has been all over the news a while ago)

@linuxxx Ah, I get why you're asking. It's a rule made by the university's apartment and has nothing to do with laws (to my knowledge)

@linuxxx What do you mean with 'authority'? US law?

'Cause I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply in Europe. :D

@theCalcaholic Yup. They have the authority to hack anything anywhere. It's officially not allowed according to European laws to hack European targets but then, nearly all NSA programs are illegal so yeah...

@theCalcaholic http://businessinsider.com/google-n...

It passed by the way

@linuxxx Ah ok. Yeah I saw that. :/

Why did you mention it again?

(don't want to be rude, I just wrote a lot lately and don't know what you were referring to exactly 🙈)

@theCalcaholic i saw something with the fbi and malicious in one sentence, that's all tbh 😅

@JoshBent I used Ancile for that (don't find the source atm): http://technewshunter.com/security/...

However, here's the pastebin: https://pastebin.com/GXsAYigZ

@linuxxx Oh! I meant FB (Facebook), not the FBI. XD

@theCalcaholic I read it wrong myself, mother of god! Wow xD.

@theCalcaholic Thanks

Just going to drop this in here out of curiosity, maybe someone can explain it to me.

What happened to those "telemetry consent" popups? I thought they were there because the law required the developer to ask for consent before collecting data? How do companies like MS get around this? Or have the made that implicit in their EULA so by using the product you allow them to spy on you?

@linuxxx Shit I just had reply to that FBI hacking comment.

No they don't. But that comes down to what kind of laws we are looking at. For example, FBI might very well be allowed to hack into Chinese computers by US laws but most likely not by Chinese laws. But that being an international affair it's more about espionage than legal/illegal.

They probablly still do it because no-one can do anything about it but that's just US exploiting its power in the world.

I mean what would china do?
Impose sanctions? They'd lose too much from it themselves
Stop diplomatic relations? Same as above
Declare war? Same as above

FBI or more accurately US (since this is an international affair) can hack anyone they want as long as they don't go too over board and piss some countries off so much that they will start considering the above options

Anyhow, international hacking, especially by state agencies, doesn't follow the same rules as the rest of us

@runfrodorun on the point of any non OS software being designed with malice

I disagree and the argumentation is grounded in logical deduction and principals of capitalism. So here goes

If you assume that any proprietary software is designed with malice you must also assume that any private company is founded on basis of malice
That is not how capitalism works. By ecnomic theory companies not based on providing the most value for their customers will be outclassed by ones that are. It's an efficiency game, the most efficient one wins.

Ofcourse that all assumes that theories hold true which they always don't to full extent. It's also missing pieces about human irrationality, economists love to assume humans to be rational agents which they sadly are not

In any case, the core idea of a co pant is of course to make money for the owners. But no company based their identity on malice, they might do immoral things at times to make money but malice in itself is never the core idea

@Jop- Reading @runfrodorun comments about keyboard driver buffer I wonder if it even makes sense to talk about keyloggers in operating systems. I mean, they must capture the keystrokes to work after all so you could say they are all keyloggers.

Also, I doubt MS sends all your keystrokes back to MS servers. That would be just a stupid amount of data to send but then again I have no proof, could be wrong

@Froot saaafe brother... it is a game. If you’re not in the top 2-5% of platforms you’re not consistently earning the good stuff 😊

Also, anecdotal aside: I think Microsoft were known to fuck up their libraries before shipping them to competitor devs in the 90s... so that the product they’d developed would be the leader.

I’ll have to look out the reference on that one, it was either them or ibm or one of the bigger fuckers.

Still no reason to avoid the market leads...

There are also keyloggers everywhere, technically there’s the ability to have a keylogger on devrant rn because GA is a glorified events tracer, and key press is an event.

@runfrodorun True true.
As for Linux. Being a developer, Linux is the perfect system to be on so even without the privacy argument I'd be using it. And the privacy argument is not super strong with me probablly because I use Ubuntu. But I like it, it works ☺️

As for data I meant more the bandwidth and such. They'd need quite capable servers on the receiving end to take in all keystrokes from the 100+ million windows 10 pcs. Then again Netflix can upload 80gbps (can't find the source but I think it was 80) so anything's possible I suppose

@runfrodorun You really are deep in the rabbit hole tho, aren't you? ☺️

Has anybody some experience with natron? I've been using blender for vfx but maybe I should try natron out.

meh, i just use gimp and blender rather than PS and 3Ds.

1. it is foss
2. just, fits for me well

Not a new Linux user here and I didn't know about some of these. This is a handy list.