something kinda depressing about devrant is that, because of sexist bs, women have prime rant material, but this app is also full of sexist bs, so it ends up being kinda hostile towards a significant portion of the users

Well, at least half of the users.

Edit: prob not an an even representation though. So less than half.

@Demolishun that's the dream, but I've always been the token girl in the IT department. it's kind of a losing battle because there's no other women to back us up, we get discouraged and some give up, and then there's less women around

I mean... Hostility... Honesty... There's a fine line. I think everyone's an asshole, regardless of gender, race or disability. I'm an equal opportunity jerk!

(This becomes less ironic when you realise I've made a complaint at work about disability discrimination)

@darksideofyay how exactly do you get discouraged? And why do you get the impression that devrant (this app?) is full of sexism?
I have the contrary impression about devrant.

@Lensflare I'm just going to say it before someone else: the person with the male avatar doesn't see sexism here.

@atheist usually people can bond over dealing with jerks, but it's disheartening to be the "killjoy", when you're the only one getting offended by the jerk

and it's not just that, it's a lot of tiny things that chip away at us every day

I've said it before, a lot of us are upper middle class white dudes with some university education in the mix.

(not a criticism of anyone here, one I've made before tho) Attitudes that involve looking down on people without that background will keep it as such.

@atheist yeah I’m sick of that kind of "argument".

What kinds of things are offensive?

Being offended often is a choice. I get offended about things, but realize my reaction is still my choice. Some things are admittedly harder to let go.

@Lensflare What argument? The argument that white males are far less likely to experience discrimination, and so are far less likely to be aware of it?

I think that's pretty valid.

@Lensflare well, aside from Root, i don't see a lot of women, so yeah, that makes it harder to spot sexism, but what i do see, specially in replies, is: dismissal of the rant, sexual/romantic "jokes", mansplaining, name-calling feminists or just women that call out sexism etc

@atheist the argument that being male makes one unable recognize sexism or to judge what is sexist.

@Demolishun do you experience any kind of structural discrimination? i think it's easier to explain if you have been through something of the sort

it goes beyond "a jerk" or another, it's every f-ing thing. like i said, it chips away. people often have good intentions, but society in general is so f-ed up that our good intentions are tainted

@Lensflare i think what he meant is that you can spot sexism and help women, but to tell a woman "no that's not sexism" when she's telling you it is... it's not really a guy's place, y'know? i think women know it better what it's like, because they live it

@Lensflare I agree that men can spot sexism, I agree that men can recognise it. I argue, as an individual with a disability, that unless you are in the demographic facing discrimination, it's harder to recognise that it happens, worse it's incredibly difficult to point out in, say, the workplace because there's a burden of proof. If I call out discrimination in my workplace, without sufficient evidence, I may be seen as a trouble maker and it may damage my career. It *shouldn't* happen. It does.

I can empathise with but don't speak for women in this regard.

Yep, there is sexism on devrant. And yes, it looks like it mostly is the males participating in it.

But in comparison to the meatspace, the sexism seems to target all genders equally.

In my opinion, that is a huge improvement. Sexism, like a lot of the other isms will not go away and might even be good to have in a community in modest quantities.

@NickyBones I've seen quite a few of your rants and never detected it (or at least don't recall by heart). I'm kinda shocked. Hope I'm not one of the unwitting participants.

@Lensflare Let me put it this way: if someone makes a shitty comment about someone with my condition, my reaction may be that I want to punch them in the face. You may not have that reaction, because you are less likely to understand the context, why I might find it offensive. That makes perfect sense, I am not criticising you for that. I am pointing out that you may lack that context.

@darksideofyay makes me wonder, if you think they have good intentions, then being offended by that may also be just as much your fault as their fault.
But it’s getting dangerous for me here. The more I will say, the more I will be viewed as a sexist, probably.

@Oktokolo interesting take 🤔
i do recognize that sexism can hurt men too, although it's in a very different way. what I think is an issue tho is that for men, that equality is new, for women is just more of the same crap we get from 9 to 5

@Lensflare i don't think you're sexist, i think you were raised by a sexist society. it's not about individual blame, it's about a structural problem. it's hard to talk about this problem, because men get very defensive and deny it without hearing. i do appreciate if you engage in the conversation, as long as you're willing to listen a bit to my rant 😊

@NickyBones i think all your comments are spot on, and i can relate to the stuff you said... which is sad 😂

@darksideofyay yeah I’m interested in seeing and maybe understanding it better.

@Lensflare "The more I will say, the more I will be viewed as a sexist, probably."

The easiest solution: don't interact with female posters. Probably the best. No complaints. Problem solved.

@Fast-Nop but... But everyone can strive to be better. Not engaging is just hiding from the problem.

@atheist Well, I have a number of male posters here whom I already try to avoid any interaction with, and adding a few more folks won't be difficult.

@Fast-Nop as in you avoid interacting with shitheads that won't learn? I support that. But don't group "women" in with that. If anything, my comment was the most controversial.

I am an asshole, feel free to group me with the shitheads. But IDGAF.

@Lensflare sometimes it's silly stuff, and i do wonder if it's worth complaining, but at the end of the day... I'm tired man... it hurts, i feel like I'm radioactive, the guys won't interact with me, I don't think they want to, and when someone says it's all in my head I feel like I'm going crazy

@darksideofyay lol, well if you ever need a hand grenade to throw in the mix, I'm always happy to piss people off, at least on here.

I will say that I have never seen females being treated in a way that I would say is sexist at work. And I have more that 10 years experience in 3 different companies.
I can’t say anything about the salaries because i don’t know about them.
Now that might be my ‘blindness’ as a male, but it’s hard for be to believe.
So, I’m interested in how sexism is perceived here and what details I might have missed when working with women and seeing how man interact with them. Or maybe how I am interacting with them and might do something that is being seen as sexist.

@darksideofyay
A part of the assymmetry also is, that "manly" "cultures" or gender sterotypes in general traditionally include acceptance of some "rough" language and behavior - so for most of us, the lesser forms, like sexist jokes - are actually not percieved as sexist. Even when we are the targets.

I am of the opinion, that the average male is less "subtle" than the average woman when encoding and decoding verbal and non-verbal messages.

@Lensflare yeah, i think that's a positive attitude 😊
if you wanna know about sexism in the workplace, talking to your female co-workers is a good start. they might notice some comments or attitudes that you didn't.
about the salary, i don't think you should shy away from asking them about it. talk openly, and if you find some foul play, you can back them up 😉

@Lensflare Fuck, if it gives context, I literally had a letter from the CTO about my work probation saying I have to submit to a medical exam for one of my medical conditions. I have 2 medical conditions, I disclosed both. One nearly killed me, and is still potentially life threatening. One is inconvenient for them. Guess which they asked me to get a medical evaluation for?

Will have to delete this in a bit, coz is way more info than I should share. NVM, IDGAF.

I've totally derailed this now. What were we talking about?

@NickyBones I hope I didn’t start that thread, but I probably did. While on the whole this place is better than say Reddit, it’s still sorta cringy to see some of the outright sexual comments in relation to a tech rant. Like “just go squeeze some tits” isn’t a thing we’re likely to do if we identify with the op, even if it’s a suggested method of dealing with said rant (no judgments if you do).

I agree with the death by a thousand cuts and feeling like you’re on a island, even tho in reality it’s just being the only woman at the table. It’s better than it was, but it still ain’t awesome.

@atheist man, that sucks... my friend has a plethora of disabilities, and they had a really hard time getting hired. now they have a job they hate, but if they give it up who knows if they'll get something else. the extra fucked up part is that they're one of the most brilliant people I've ever met, and I don't think people notice their struggle because of that

@darksideofyay It's annoying as fuck. I have ADHD, which means I forget shit and am bad at paperwork, but I'm a shit hot software engineer. Pretty sure I'm the best on the team, possibly company. That might sound like ego, not that much.

I'm still being chased for paperwork from 3 months ago.

@NickyBones i once ranted about a guy asking me about every little think that he could just google, and a guy said "someone has a crush on you" or smt...
oh and the comments about my looks... sometimes i just wanna look like a straw man, then I won't get a comment about my body

@NickyBones I can relate, but not for looks. I told a manager that his server was about to crash…he ignored me. 1 hour later he came and said “the server is down!” And I said “yeah I told you it was about to happen so you could prevent that” and he responded “oh that was real? I thought you were just being whiny.” I can’t think of one of the male engineers I work with ever being considered “whiny” on a critical server memory issue….but I’m sure we’re all treated the same. 🙄

@Fast-Nop Is this why you don't return my calls?

@atrabilious i forgot to put the random sexual comments on my list... it's never about dicks, smh 😂

Then there's the whole "nearly dying from covid related blood clots and other complicated stuff that's been ongoing for 15 months, I told work I need a standing desk for home to avoid more clots and they told me I could drive 50 miles to pick one up, I don't have a car so fuck knows how that helps".

@NickyBones Thank you for that example. Honestly I’m not sure how I would see it in that case. And I’m torn between “you are just overreacting” and “you are right, that was a mean thing to say”.

@NickyBones
The photo thing definitely is sexism. And as a male i can assure you that stuff like that happens inside male-only groups too.
I once had a coworker no one (yes, that includes me) took seriously as a dev because he looked like a body builder. Took me a while to realize, that he actually has skill - sadly he already had been mobbed out of the company by then...

Anyway. I've been dealing with this all week, so I may be wound up. But also can't exactly rant incase anyone recognises details, but tbh I'm so completely bullet proof that I don't care.

@Lensflare I think that's the problem, it's so much about context and detail, that it's stuff that verges on innocuous.

@NickyBones don’t forget “you should smile more, people will think you’re friendlier.” But…I’m not friendlier, that’s the point.

Something to think about in the work place. It is actually a risk to male employees to banter casually with women in the work place. Any accusation, true or false, can wind up destroying a career. I won't be alone with a woman in any situation at work. I make sure the door is always open if I talk to HR (women work there). So maybe some of the isolation at work may be due to this? Also could be severe lack of social skills too.

It's also about power. If you're in the minority, if the joke is about the minority in a social group or whatever, then the "jokes" become more uncomfortable because you've also got less power to call them out

@Demolishun i think you should reflect about how messed up it is, that women are afraid of being assaulted, and you feel like men are the victims in that situation. if you're scared of being blamed for something you didn't do, that's completely fine, but I don't think that's the bigger issue at hand, and what you get out of that behavior is making your coworkers feel isolated. if you do get blamed, chances are you won't face any consequences anyway

@darksideofyay It would helpful to somehow quantify the interaction. Maybe examples by story or analogy? I can guess, but it would be just that, a guess.

@Demolishun No, that's because you're on Windows. :)

Lol. HR. They approved the letter that got sent to me.

@NickyBones those 3 examples are really WTF. You have any right to feel annoyed there. I’ve definitely never seen that kind of stuff happening, I’m pretty sure.

@NickyBones wait, HR can be non-females? 😄

I’ll be honest: I don’t see much sexism here, apart from a few users in particular. (And most of the users that have been overtly sexist/propositioning/insulting/etc. have been banned for it, thankfully.)

There is some, of course, because there always is, but I’ve found devRant to be more welcoming than … really anywhere else. That’s part of why I’ve been so active here.

@Demolishun the boys always had these inside jokes, and they'd usually get along swell, like saying their junior is their son or something like that. the thing is they would never call me "their daughter", because there's a disconnect in the interaction, they can't relate, they don't know how to talk to girls, so they don't have the intimacy. I'd be fine with that joke if it was directed at me, it's not sexual nor romantic, and it's not about an aspect of my being i had no say in. In fact, i had a boss that we used to joke that he was very fatherly, because he had a daughter our age, he knew how to interact with us because of that. Hell, i could even talk to the guy about cramps.
anyway, without those social interactions, my boss had no sympathy for me, and when I'd bring up problems in communication he'd brush it off, because i was the only one complaining, but it was affecting my job, and that made matters worse, because now i was the whiny one. i ended up quitting in 4 months

Going back to my point about how I think everyone's an asshole.

@NickyBones I can relate to not being heared in meetings and that thing about accepting ideas/suggestions, too.

@Demolishun i had two people on HR, a man and a woman, and they both agreed with me that our department was failing in communication, and that there was some sexism. they told me to be patient, that they'd do something, but nothing happened 🤷
the day i quit i was so depressed that i couldn't get out of bed to go to work, because my boss hated me and no one would tell me sh*t about major changes in the code

@NickyBones yeah, there's always layers. if something is bad, it gets a little worse.
about the comments on my looks, i wouldn't call myself a bombshell, but i have an hourglass figure, and idk... there's something demeaning about those comments, even if they're positive. i didn't chose to look the way i do, it has nothing to do with work, and I've never seen someone comment how hot a male coworker looks

@NickyBones
While bearing a beard definitely does make the non-devs take you more seriously while technobabbling - it doesn't work at all when interacting with other devs in your age group or older.

So as a non-bearer, you should not really miss out because of that when talking to other devs (except when teaching a junior - but a grumpy face will do as well).
And avoiding managers, marketing, sales, HR and other powerpoint folks probably is a good idea in general - for devs of all genders and sexes.

@darksideofyay I've never commented on looks of female co-workers. With my male peers, I did, along "dude, you look damn tired" or so, but not for women because who knows in what weird way that might be taken.

It's also why I limit interaction with female co-workers to polite and distant communication geared at doing the job. In decades, I've never had a private meet-up involving female co-workers unless that was organised by the company so that it wasn't actually private.

Incidentally, it's also why I never got any complaints. Keep your distance, limit interactions, tone it down, and you're good to go as a man in work life.

The more personal and heartily interactions, that's for male co-workers only because shit just doesn't blow up.

@NickyBones This. Absolutely, positively this. This has been my entire career.

Nothing I come up with, discover, build, etc. is ever a good idea, or good enough until I either argue the other person into the ground or convince a male colleague to say it first (in which case it’s accepted immediately but i lose credit) or have him back me up on it (in which case i get credit, but it’s always a debate and the quality is questioned for weeks).

I’ve resigned myself to either being a quiet nobody that works on who-cares-what, or the hot-headed office bitch.

But at the same time, I can’t exactly point any of this out because people invariably say something like “they’re just discussing the idea” or “they want to make sure it’s good first” or “you have to earn their respect” or the worst of all: “you’re just being sensitive.” Ugh.

I have quite literally experienced this at every single job I’ve held, with one exception: a remote volunteer position. (I hired myself as a volunteer to test the theory.) I played the part of Luca, an Italian game dev. (This was before video calls being commonplace.) Within just a few weeks, I was the most respected member of the staff, the most respected dev, and everyone listened to me. There was no incessant questioning of my ideas or what I built, no hesitation using any of it, no dismissing of my ideas or of me, and no one ignored me. The most memorable of all, though, was one of the managers (who absolutely *hated* the real me, I might add) calling me God in front of everyone else. The difference was staggering.

I fought tooth and nail for respect my entire career. My every idea, decision, feature, direction, etc. I suggested or implemented was a battle. But when I pretended to be a man? Everything was immediately freaking trivial.

It was unbelievable, and eye-opening.

@Oktokolo something that really doesn't help me is that I'm soft-spoken, petite and have *cute vibes*. if auras were a thing, mine would be pink. there's some age issues too, since I'm young, and there's also my lack of presence. still, i think those are feminine traits that were instilled in me, we're taught to be submissive, coy, so it kinda falls in the sexism department

It's more than a tad depressing that literally all the women I know in this industry have tons of sexist stories, everything from the seemingly casual "just smile a bit more love" comments to pretending to help with a problem just to fish for sexual favours in return. Not just in one place either.

Problem is, HR's answer to this is "ah, let's send everyone on a course about respect to everyone!" - and, understandably, the course is complete shite, and has no impact aside from being known as yet another joke.

@darksideofyay
That most men comment about another male's body in non-sexualizing ways, shouldn't be surprising as homophobia still is a thing today.

But if a man happens to have any visible flaw or even if he does look too much in shape - he definitely is guranteed to hear comments about that from other men too.

Great, a mega thread once again. Too bad I will never read the comments. Or should I?

@Fast-Nop what I'd add to your point is that commenting on someone is fine sometimes, you just have to know the line.

I'd say things people chose (haircut, fashion, makeup) are fair game, because it's part of their expression. Things like "wow, that hair color is cool!" or "that's a pretty <insert accessory> !" are fine, and I think people would be happy to hear them.
comments on the person's body are unnecessary, that's the line.

when it's not a positive comment, if the person can't fix it in a couple of minutes, don't say anything, nothing good will come out of it.

@electrineer i think it's a very wholesome thread mate, we're having a great talk 😊

@darksideofyay I have to say, the nice aura thing does make someone a bit of a target. I'm literally the same, I'm 6ft4, so I'm either nice or at risk of being intimidating by sheer virtue of size. But I prefer being nice, so I go out of my way to help people. Some people think that means they can push me around, or push me to do what they want. I ignore that mostly, but there's occasionally that kinda person that thinks you're a push over and doesn't stop.

@Root I didn't quite believe the extent to which a colleague of mine experienced the same thing until I saw just how much she was getting shut down (by one guy in particular.) Same with questions - they were all "stupid questions that she should be ashamed to ask."

After a while I just started jumping on calls with her and presenting her problems / ideas as my own, and lo and behold, the ideas were fantastic and the problems were "understandable, no worries, here's a bunch of stuff & examples to look at!" Bloody depressing and a waste of time, but I just started jumping on calls regularly with her after that to try and stop this guy verballing pummelling her into the ground. Didn't seem to be another sensible option.

@Oktokolo yeah, i think women can be vicious about that too. sexism and homophobia often walk hand in hand, because our society says "feminine traits" are undesirable and unworthy of respect. i think the ones who benefit from that system are few, and a lot of guys have more in common with women in that fight

@AlmondSauce lol, re the course being shite, my company has confused "inclusion" with "collaboration", and I was kinda annoyed. Then I went and looked at the presentation from the CIPD (aka a HR standards organisation), and it was shit. "everyone should feel welcome, everyone should feel valued, everyone should be able to contribute", not what bullshit someone might face that is a barrier to contributing.

@Oktokolo but I don't see women talking about hot guys either, y'know? i think there is a power thing to it

@atheist ah the famous PR speech of acceptance, without taking any real measures 😂

@atheist Courses like that are *always* crap. They're just HR's way of justifying their jobs while being able to shout from the rooftops that they're doing all they can to make the workplace safe and inclusive.

I'm honestly baffled as to why more companies haven't seen the light, and just scrapped the central HR department.

@darksideofyay
Yes, that aren't the traits, others (regardless of gender) expect from a team lead.
But you don't have to be one. You only need to find one that respects the silent team members too.

P.S.: That traits might actually have a lot to do with biology.
It isn't just social environment. Chromosomes matter too.

@AlmondSauce because the media scrutiny, the legal fees, the settlements, that stuff costs money, and they care about the moneh

@electrineer it's an interesting read, but yeah... That grew fast. It's positive, no reason not to read it, but it's kinda long.

@Oktokolo i think genetics matter *to a degree*, but I also think those traits should be respected

@AlmondSauce I actually think the HR department has a use. But of the 3 companies I've worked at, one has done nothing, one has been fucking useless, and one has been pretty good and basically told people to leave me the fuck alone and let me get on with shit. I was at that last one for like, 4 years.

@darksideofyay This is true, but the only media scrutiny I've seen from companies that have done it so far has been free advertising from a nice write up (eg. https://bbc.co.uk/news/...).

Bleh. Perhaps I'm still just bitter about the HR cow who tried to make me sign an incorrect contract that one time 😅

I need to go to sleep now, if there's another 100 comments by the morning... Night y'all! 🖖

@atheist They've got a theoretical use - but in practice, I've never been at a company where they've actually done anything vaguely useful.

Seriously, I'd love to work at a company where everyone said "oh yeah, HR are great! They're really organised, effective, deal with any queries you have really quickly, and create really useful and interesting courses" - but I'm pretty sure there's some universal law to prevent that from happening.

@AlmondSauce the case you brought is really interesting, i just wish there was some employees pov as well

@AlmondSauce Yeah. The good HR place didn't *do* much, they were also accountancy and manufacturing and a couple of other jobs. If there was a problem, they'd sort it, but they didn't have time for all the PR crap.

HR was 1 person with 3 jobs...

@darksideofyay I've heard it's a reasonably good place to work (without giving too much away, one of its offices is very close to where I work), but not sure about any HR experiences in particular.

@darksideofyay
Or instead of being a power thing, it is just the result of natural selection.

As a man, chances to find a partner for reproduction are way higher when you are not of the passive type.
And traits leading to lower reproduction rate are less common in following generations.

@Oktokolo well, biology doesn't say how much of our behavior is taught and how much is genetics. for that stuff, you have to look at psychology, philosophy, sociology.
if it's taught, then it wouldn't die out by natural selection.
i also don't know about it increasing the chances with girls... i find it *yikises*, and if you look at celebrities popular with girls (like boy bands), they have this soft, caring, respectful (public) image

@darksideofyay
I myself am more of the calm pedantic type. And i am pretty sure that this traits actually make me write better code in more time.

And most male brains definitely apreciate feminine body traits in females - although for purely sexual reasons...

@Oktokolo when i said "feminine traits", i meant what is socially considered as desirable woman behavior (demureness, nurture, kindness, passiveness), and i think those should be respected traits.
about the sexual part... I don't even know what to say. i think you had intended as a positive point, but it didn't translate as such to me

Dafaq happened in this thread...

I've never felt a female bias on this site, quite the contrary.

@bols59 either read the thread or be quiet. More than happy to engage if you read the thread. From your comment I suspect you haven't.

@Floydimus it's mostly positive discussion. It's not all about rainbows and sunshine, but it is positive.

@darksideofyay I am happy to try and explain, feel free to tell me to shut up. @Oktokolo your comment I think I understand your point but as it was stated does reduce women to sex objects. The "for purely sexual reasons..." is "a bit" creepy. That's just why I think it ain't great.

@atheist Damn! I was here for unicorn vomit. You folks are such a disappointment.

@Floydimus 😂😂😂 👏👍

👏 one of the more wholesome threads I’ve (partially) read in a while. It makes me happy that this kind of discussions are possible in here. For a while I thought we’re lost it all on this platform.

Having grown up in an inherently sexist patriarchal culture has never done any of us any good.

@100110111 you and @katvoira were reading through it at almost the same time, I was getting notifications on the same comments one after the other.

@atheist
The problem is, that the reduction to sex objects actually is, what happens in the brain on the lower levels.
Of course our ratio keeps that instincts in check, so there really is no excuse for rude sexist talk or worse...

But:
Seeing a sexually attractive women as a potential sex partner, is the default the brain tries to do.
Keeping that in check isn't free. It does reduce focus and distracts.
The internal censoring also means, that a relation to a female coworker can't ever be as open as one to a male coworker and conversations are therefore less productive.

I am not avoiding women on the job.
But i totally get why a lot of men do that.

And while that alone already qualifies as structural sexism, there sadly is no way to fix it in mixed sex teams apart from (sexistly) only selecting ugly females or non-straight men...
All-female teams (including the team lead) might be a good way to include women in dev departments though.

@Oktokolo the problem with that argument is that people think better when they're in a diverse group of people. Kevlin Henney talks about it below. The "group intelligence" increases with diversity, not IQ.

You talk about your internal filter, and how that's on around women but not around men. I ask, why? I understand the meaning, and seek to understand the logic. I'm not attacking you. What are you filtering out? Why are you filtering it out? If it's because you don't think it's appropriate to say around women, do you really think it's appropriate to say around men? Is it because you know the men better? Are you uncomfortable around women? I'm sometimes guilty on this too. I try to be better.

I somehow ended up being experienced in talking about all manner of stuff through family/friends, a friend was telling me she had an ovarian cist and was surprised I wasn't uncomfortable. I'd rather not have had the practice, but I did. Best advice: if you're not sure what to say, don't say anything. Just listen. Be supportive. Ask if there's anything you can do to help. Let them tell you, trust me they know best. This isn't just women it's any situation. Health is complicated, and when people say stupid shit to me it just adds to the burden.

I'm also aware there's a need to avoid perceptions of inappropriateness, that's difficult too.

https://youtu.be/-nWhH-4wWBU

Ive had purely non-sexual friendships with women. 2019 was a really crappy year, my drinking buddy was a woman, we were both dating on the side, both giving advice about dating. She moved to a different country, very sad, but still in touch.

@Oktokolo It's not even that, mainly. It's rather the overhead of trying to avoid miscommunication, like being mistaken for flirting when I'm not. Plus also cushioning the whole communication somewhat. The result is talking rather like with a customer than with a co-worker.

Sure that creates a kind of wall, and it does keep female co-workers somewhat standing on the side. However, they wanted the cushioning, remember all the backlash against bro culture and stuff that they fought instead of participating, and the cushioning also has its cost.

However, the cost is on them, not on me, and in a way that they can't retaliate via HR because keeping it distanced and professional is no grounds for filing a complaint.

I'd also not mentor a female junior dev because that's too much risk without any profit. One solution would be full video and audio surveillance, but while that would eliminate the risk, I wouldn't work in such a company in the first place.

My mindset with everyone is friendship first. Bit different on dating apps and such. But even with dating someone, if you wouldn't want to be friends with them, would you want to date them?

@Fast-Nop dude, "bro culture" resulted in "#MeToo". Yes, it's not every man. But if you look at the statistics, it's almost every woman.

I get why you've moved to a different extreme. I think with stuff like mentoring, it's a lot easier to avoid inproprietry when it's helping someone at their desk in an open plan office. But there are other solutions. Group mentoring for example. A few seniors, a few juniors, mixed genders, comfortable balance of power. Going back to segregation is a backwards step.

I agree it's hard to avoid miscommunication. I was a social secretary for a uni sports club. It was literally my job to chat to everyone, people thought I had a crush on everyone, but I also tret the women in the exact same way as the guys. There was someone I had a crush on. She didn't know. I literally had to tell her. She was surprised.

If anything, I made out with more of the dudes than women, but that's a different story.

@atheist I hate open office spaces because I need silence to focus. Yes, segregation is going backwards, but I don't care. As white, heterosexual man, I'm already on the hate list of the progressives anyway.

That said, of course it's not like women in general are dangerous - the problem is that you can't reliably identify the loose cannons before it's too late and you're in trouble. Only prevention helps against unknown threats.

@Fast-Nop the same is true in reverse re danger.

@atheist
The filter is always on when other people are around which aren't full friends - but in my experience, women in general seem to be annoyed and misunderstand way more things in general, than men. So the filter does a lot more work for them.
Yes, i experienced the groups of appropriate topics and phrasings to be of significantly different size.

Like @Fast-Nop wrote, the filter leads to communication with female collegues feeling more like communication with strangers (like customers).

But i am not uncomfortable around women as long as they aren't sexually attractive. For that i blame the need to suppress the low-level layers in the brain, which made the human species not going extinct...

@NickyBones That's what radical feminists have been promoting for a long time, actually. :)

However, there is a difference in that when a straight woman dates a straight man, she hopes to get something out of it, e.g. a relationship. That does justify some risk, although in order to minimise it, the first dates better be in public such as cafés.

The difference to my situation is that I have nothing to gain out of that. I can perfectly work while keeping a professional if a little cold distance. Going by your posts, you wouldn't be unhappy with that, either.

@Oktokolo i think the main difference between humans and animals is thinking... if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't live in a society
speaking in evolutionary terms, getting along and cooperating is where we're at, it works. we help each other, and we thrive.
we're not hunters and gatherers anymore...

@darksideofyay humans are not the only animals that think. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/...

And some certainly get along and cooperate, too.

@electrineer what i meant is that we live in a society, we're sedentary creatures, we have agriculture, buildings, laws...

@NickyBones Male and female brains are actually quite different in that regard. That's because women have a lot less testo. It was very interesting for me to meet an F2M trans and talk about that topic because these folks are the only ones who can actually compare. It's drastic.

It also makes sense biologically because male and female procreation strategies are literally the opposite. A man can have thousands of offpring (theoretically), a woman only a handful. Hence, evolutionary male success fundamentally can bet on quantity while the female one has to go for selecting quality.

Obviously, a society wouldn't work that way because 95% of men wouldn't get anything out of that, so societies put up rules to keep that dynamic somewhat in check - but that's not the same as getting rid of it, which isn't possible.

@Fast-Nop some species mate for life. Just sayin.

@atheist Divorce rates don't suggest that humans are among these.

@Fast-Nop women choose what kids they'll have... many cultures have abortions, or in some cases, like japan, they'd just carry the baby to term and kill it. in the west, abortion only became illegal at about the industrial revolution 🤷

@NickyBones right 😂 it's difficult to make these claims on biology alone, 1 because we're not biologists and 2 because we're in a society!!

@NickyBones For men, it's not primarily the looks that make them attractive. It's dominance, social status, looks - in that order. That's because good looks alone don't assert success and strength. And with F2M, I don't mean someone young, but a full-grown, adult, previous woman.

Also, the estro kind of horny drive usually selects the "bad boys", not the ones who would be desirable for anything permanent as providers. That's basically how and why successful bands' guys get backstage sex because in a considerable audience, there will always be some women right at that cycle phase.

It also means that a direct co-worker would hardly qualify because being a peer means no remarkable social status in the first place, but merely being equal.

@Fast-Nop have you seen K-pop fans? they love them soft bois 😂
idk where you got the bad boy argument, seriously... that's personal taste

@NickyBones i personally like small, soft-spoken guys, and i often joke with my bf that he'll be my trophy boy 😂

@Fast-Nop 🤮 dude, what makes people attractive, at least from an evolutionary perspective, is potentially beneficial traits. You've been arguing the evolutionary angle, let me argue it too. This is complex, but ranges from scarcity (because diversity is evolutionarily beneficial), to symmetry (indicator of "good" genes), social standing (able to support offspring), to other dimensions. You've reduced it to what you, a guy, think women find attractive in men. I'm not convinced what you find attractive is that simple.

But that's
a) not allowing women to speak, and
b) reducing women to simple 1d characters.

Also I don't give a fuck what my degree is in, I have ADHD, I've helped a biologist with their uni coursework. I've read a bit of everything. I can't not. It's kinda annoying.

@atheist "You've reduced it to what you, a guy, think women find attractive in men."
Nope. You just have to look at which men have no issues finding women because they even have them competing. Demand indicates preferences. Not of every individual woman on earth, obviously.

Your point a) is completely ridiculous. Maybe you have missed it, but women are literally posting right here in this thread.

Your point b) doesn't make sense, either, because in order to find general tendencies, you have to abstract individuals away. Humans are far less individual unicorns than some like to think.

@Fast-Nop I'm aware that women are posting in this thread. That's my point. You didn't ask them. You told them.

@Fast-Nop I didn't abstract "people" away. I abstracted animals away. That isn't psychology, it's evolutionary biology. Everything I said applies to gorillas, to peacocks, to fish.

@atheist I don't need to ask them because I fully expect them to be able to state their views even without being asked, you know. They don't need my permission to write.

@Fast-Nop I can abstract people away too. Kissing is a test of genetic compatibility.

@Fast-Nop friend, we literally told you what we like in men, scroll up

@darksideofyay or for those feeling less diplomatic,

@Fast-Nop: "I don't speak for them, I'm just going to give my opinion. They can speak over me".

I uhhh... I should probably be a bit more diplomatic.

@atheist "they can speak over me" sounds like no one is listening to each other

@darksideofyay I agree. Am I helping?

😅

@atheist 😂😂😂😂 you are, and diplomacy is difficult

@NickyBones
I guess, the real question is:
What makes Johnny Depp universally attractive to women?

@Oktokolo idk, he has a pretty face
but not every woman thinks so, my mom doesn't

mom is a fan of superman and cap america (cause she likes good bois and she's also a nerd)

@darksideofyay lol, diplomacy.

I'm chaotic good. Good intentions, questionable methods.

@darksideofyay Yeah, and I have male friends of 1.70m max who usually get turned down due to their size. I got my share of being turned down, too, obviously, but never due to size. That's what being above 1.80m buys you.

@atheist I regard your behaviour as pretty sexist because you seem to feel the need to step in as if our female members, if interested to do so, were incapable of stating their POVs by contrast.

@Oktokolo I think Jack Sparrow is what gets me. One of the things our brains find funny is those spontaneous, clever connections. You see it in comedy shows, where comedians will, near the end, reference a joke they were making at the beginning.

That's his character. So much of it is clever connections, stuff that's been thought through, but doesn't look like it. Like him taking the coin in the first one, and then being stabbed and not dying.

@Fast-Nop i don't mind @atheist stepping in, because sometimes guys will only listen if it comes from a man

@Fast-Nop dude, this started as me relating to discrimination because of my disability.

@atheist it's funny when you talk about him in that movie, i only had eyes for keira knightley 😂

@darksideofyay I liked her too! The 3 of them had brilliant chemistry. What I'm currently hoping for is a bond spin off with Ana De Armas. If you've not seen no time to die yet, she is absolutely brilliant in it. She goes from nervous, to kickass, to confident, in like 10 minutes. She definitely wasn't in the movie long enough.

@darksideofyay She's not bad (in Curse of the Caribbean I mean), but IMO no match for Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2.

@atheist yeah, i think i said this in a previous comment, it's easier to understand if you experience any kind of discrimination

@NickyBones oh he was very cute in his early years!!
maybe his later works will have something for me when I'm older, but I'm just not into them yet

@darksideofyay (IMHO, based on this conversation) I think people may find it easier to relate to disability discrimination than gender discrimination because, in theory, gender is within everyone's scope of experience, whereas so few people know what they're talking about when it comes to disabilities. People understand that they may not know what they are talking about with disabilities, having that conversation at the same time as a gender discrimination discussion puts people in the right frame of mind. Still, fucking exhausting conversation to have, my attitude with work is "HR tells my manager what to do, then I don't have to explain to every idiot". Doesn't help if HR is fucking useless. And I can come across as abrasive and very intelligent and convincing in a single sentence, so that's also useful. 😅

@atheist the framing is a big deal... i think most people have some issue with gender norms, that's why trans activism became such a huge deal in the recent years, and it might be the rupture of the century

@NickyBones That scene in front of Dyson's house when she has emptied her assault rifle, loads the pistol and walks over... OMG. That's not cute, but that's what I'd rate as hot. The second place goes to Sigourney Weaver in Alien.

That's what I regard as attractive female characters - not primarily because of the looks, but because of the overall package. And, unlike some modern movies, because the characters are convincing.

They aren't tough because yo go gurlz, they're tough because they've been through shit, put up with it, and grew. All while still retaining a disctinct female quality. Ripley isn't Rambo, after all.

@Fast-Nop the funny thing about alien is that the casting process was gender blind, all parts were written as gender neutral, that's why the characters all go by their surnames

@atheist I'm somewhat on the spectrum with Asperger's, but over the years, I've learnt to run a complete social emulation, and the kicker is that I can even switch it at will exactly because it's not native. Which is why I'm good at dealing with other cultures, provided that I had enough time for googling my shit together.

There is a reason why I'm the only one in our engineering department who gets acceptable results with our Indian supplier. And why I'm the one to take the hours long tech calls with our Chinese customers.

It's just that I don't care if I have no reason to do so, as you already may have noticed. :)

@Fast-Nop I'm not sure what i have, but I'm somewhere between ADHD and the autism spectrum (can relate a lot, but never got a proper diagnosis since it's more difficult for women). what I've noticed is that i can offend people sometimes without having any idea of why...
most of the time idgaf for social norms, so maybe I've been unaware of one or another of those

@Fast-Nop I'm cool with our interactions, I think they've been constructive. I'm ADHD, I have at least one psychoanalyst friend that thinks I'm ASD too. I've got dyspraxia, I think I've got EDS (if you have any joint problems, look into EDS it's comorbid in like, 40% of neurodiverse). Asthma. Hyperthyroidism. Some other medical shit that just never ends.

The one bit where I was a little annoyed was where you accused me of being sexist, because it missed the context of the conversation. This rant is the only place outside of work with shithead HR/CTO and an OK CEO, and my house mate, that I've actually talked about my disability discrimination complaint at work.

@darksideofyay ahhhh yes. I'm more inattentive, my ADHD was missed for exactly that reason, I worked it out when I was 28, even then doctors were shit, genuinely acted like I wasn't stupid enough to have a learning disability. Fuckers.

@atheist i was a really inattentive kid, but i only began struggling after high school. since depression is more associated with puberty, i think that's why i got that diagnosis. i do have a ton of anxiety, but there's a few cases of autism in my family and i wouldn't like to rule it out. my psychiatrists wouldn't even listen to me, so i kinda gave up... they think my attention issues are related to depression, even thought my parents comment on it since i was five, and i was literally hospitalized as a baby for "crying too little"

@darksideofyay the "I was a really inattentive kid but only started struggling after high-school" made me lol. That's me. Were you by chance really clever, so didn't need to pay attention in class, then when you got to uni you had this guilt complex because you'd never really had to try so thought it was your fault that you'd never developed the ability to, but then later you realise that's stupid?

@atheist also my mom doesn't think there's anything about it, because I'm exactly like her, but she can't read a single social cue and is super anxious all the time

@atheist exactly 😂 i found this channel and oh boi https://youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD

she says everything i needed to hear

@darksideofyay 😂😂😂 YOUR MOM'S JUST LIKE YOU!!! 😂😂 So anyway, ADHD is part genetic, my mother is super hyper, my uncle (her brother), is, according to my dad, "like me on speed"

@darksideofyay HELLO BRAINS! 🧠

@atheist yeah, my family has definitely some genetic bound anxiety, me and my siblings are all broken af 😂
i started wondering if it was autism actually, because there's a lot of overlap and my baby cousin got recently diagnosed... my mom checks a lot of boxes for that too

Totally ADHD, Rick Green, is also good. His "unofficial" quiz did it for me too.

https://totallyadd.com/adhd-video/...

@atheist OMG THAT QUIZ SHDJSHDHSH i love that video, and it was all me

@darksideofyay OK, so, if you related a lot to that video, there's a good chance you've got ADHD, and also your doctors are shit, get new doctors. I don't know how easy that is where you are, I literally had to pay a grand. I know someone that's good, but in the UK... So, maybe not that useful...

@atheist I'm in Brazil 😅 i think that tells the story... scientific progress takes ages to get here, so psychology is still mostly freud

@darksideofyay I don't know about the autism stuff, I'm not much of an expert. But ADHD does include social problems. I miss social cues, don't always know what to say. I kinda learnt to intentionally subvert social norms in a manner that's comedic and constructive, so I can get away with being bad at social norms.

This has nearly hit 200 comments... I think we may have left some people behind...

@atheist Well, maybe it became clearer afterwards. When I treat our (so far) two female posters here with some limited degree of roughness, it doesn't mean disrespect. It just means that I don't regard them as sissies.

Yeah, this thread is more of a chat. ^^

@darksideofyay I never took a diagnosis, either, because that would take time, cost money, and what would I even do with that? I focused more on coping strategies that let me get shit done.

I guess the only subculture where I feel at home is heavy metal - including the women who also count as metal bros.

@darksideofyay OMG Freud. He did have his merits, but him sexualising the shit out of everything was a reaction to the prude Victorian mindset. I think C.G. Jung has much more depth.

I think the ADHD helps with this stuff. People make shitty comments, and there's several ways of dealing with them. I usually go with either "be nice, dont give a fuck", or when that fails, "be totally justified but ever so slightly unreasonable, so people can either try to talk you down or be more unreasonable and less justified". If they try to talk you down, it's mutual. It's positive. It's constructive.

If they keep being shitheads, you then just connect the bits of things they've done until they look really bad. And explain it to someone else. I get more of a thrill out of that than I should. I think that's why I try so hard to be nice. When I'm trying to be mean, I'm good at it, and I don't like that I am. But even that's a defense mechanism from a lifetime dealing with crappy people.

@Fast-Nop yeahhh... There were a few more people on all sides yesterday. I think we've lost some of them.

@Fast-Nop RE the clearer, as I say, I think the chat was constructive, I think there were a few places where you were a bit condescending, but I know it's hard. I've been trying to be clear there's a separation between my experience and that of women, but there are some things that are common, like "I'm not in the group being discriminated against, I don't see discrimination", other stuff where people are likely to not have the context to be able to give their opinion. I've called you out for it, you've not got shitty. You've also backed up and explained your argument. Fuck I hate it when people make points, don't cite references, are hard to Google, hard to understand and therefore hard to counter. Or dismiss points out of hand without listening or engaging.

@Fast-Nop i think freud was great in his time, but it's been a while... people not criticizing his work is like using Aristotle's teachings in physics

@atheist it's kinda pointless to argue on the internet, but this has been one of the most constructive talks I've had in a while

Fucking "Duty of Care". Ignore me, that's a work thing. 🤬

@darksideofyay my phone occasionally struggles while trying to load this rant.

@darksideofyay but yes, it's been good. I don't bother much coz I don't have the energy. And know how to either ignore shitheads or get someone else to tell them to fuck off.

My uhhh... I might swear a lot...

@atheist If at work, some comparable topic came up, I'd probably employ "thought camo".

@darksideofyay I was just thinking how pleasantly surprised I was the comments here didn't turn to utter chaos and bitching.

@AlmondSauce yeah, for sure! when i commented on sexism in the app, i meant the casual disregard for the real bad eggs around here 🤦‍♀️
i just wish the boys would criticize them too, because we girls are not many and if we say anything it's whining

@AlmondSauce We've done well! We've barely needed a peace stick at all!

The peace stick is what I beat someone with when they're annoying me, so they'll leave me in peace.

I'm nice really, it's just this shit is god damn exhausting.

@darksideofyay It's sometimes hard for us to see (some of it is obvious as long as you've spoken to a woman before), but I think there are a few around that could be tagged and would join the discussion. It'd be good to be able to tag something that sends notifications to a group of people, so if they're around and someone feels like they'd like others to weigh in, they could tag that. Not like community moderators... Community peace stick weilders? I dunno. Thoughts?

@atheist yeah, maybe if we just started to criticize it, more people would catch onto it and do it too... encourage others by example, y'know? as it is rn, I don't think people feel encouraged to engage

@darksideofyay I think that's kinda my point, with it being exhausting. You shouldn't have to deal with it at all, never mind call it out every time it happens. But if you're not the only one calling someone out, it's a lot easier.

Easier. Maybe not a lot easier. Getting told you're wrong is nowhere near as bad when 3 people bark back.

@darksideofyay There is a parallel rant by rutee07 that indirectly references another of her rants with a comment of exactly that sort - and, unsurprisingly, that was by a male poster on my "try to avoid interaction" list.

Not using a tag because it would be unfair to expect rutee to waste her time on reading like 100+ comments here just to figure out what the mention was even about.

Not to speak of AvatarOfInsanity whose shit I totally ignore. Not using a tag as not to invite him unnecessarily.

Also, if anyone else needs it, there's a scroll to bottom option in the three dot menu, top right.

@Fast-Nop ah, ha I think I shared a link to this rant on rutee's rant, I was just like "you might want to join! You're not alone!"

@Fast-Nop and avatar is... Sometimes constructive, sometimes a shithead.

@Fast-Nop is avatarofkaine the same guy? i started this conversation because of one of his posts 😑

it'd be nice to form an alliance here 😆 I don't want to break from the community as a whole, but we could make each other stronger if we found the outcasts

@darksideofyay I think so yes. There are moments when they talk sense. I always try to be neutral, I think there's some personal stuff, family stuff, means they're bitter and other stuff, but at times they act like a shithead, it's not justified. They kinda opened up a bit, check this rant https://devrant.com/rants/4759212/...

That's not a very fun read, but it does give context...

@darksideofyay Yeah, that is the one I totally ignore because everything by him is psycho shit. So, for your reference, me not contradicting him, in particular his women-hating crap, doesn't mean I'd agree - it only means I don't want any sort of interaction with him. If this platform had an "ignore" option, I'd put him in right there.

@atheist I've seen a lot of misogynists that are just hurt, y'know? I don't know anyone's life, so i can't speak for them, but some of their coping can turn into toxic crap, and it festers... look at incels, for instance. it's a bunch of lonely boys that have been hurt by girls, and their community became a pipeline to white supremacy, just because they feel a sense of community

@darksideofyay yup. I'm not defending it, just saying that it's not totally simple. Talking about mental health is hard, bad stuff shouldn't be repeated.

@Fast-Nop I don't know if ignoring is the right track, specially since there's no block option... which might be an oversight on the devs part tbh... i guess filtering toxic crap takes a dedicated team to that, and devrant is a small project too 😓

i think the community as a whole should make it clear that the behavior is unwanted, but also give them the opportunity to stay if they follow the rules, y'know? i think everyone should have a chance to grow

@atheist I don't think rutee would read up that much here. You know, I've always liked her brutal "BAMM in your fucking face" attitude. Obviously, I can't state that in her current rant without coming off as slimy. At least, that's what my social emulation parameters say. :)

as it is right now, it feels like the misogynists are more welcome than the girls

@Fast-Nop isn't rutee a guy?

@Fast-Nop lol, I've not seen much. I've been in and out of this site for like 5 years, the last couple of weeks I've been fairly active because... I needed to rant...

@darksideofyay No, only the avatar. That said, on the internet, nobody knows even if you're a dog, and women are men, and minors are FBI agents.

@darksideofyay check out this https://devrant.com/rants/4776365/...

@Fast-Nop my bad, i thought they were a trans guy, don't have much context 🤔

@darksideofyay the devs are at least there. I think it is getting to the point where there's maybe need for slightly more moderation.

@atheist isn't it always? have anything with no moderation and soon after you get neonazis or something... Reddit is what comes to mind 🙄

@darksideofyay I do understand incels who make up their mind and join the MGTOW branch. While it does have a fox vs. sour grapes connotation, it is still a valid choice. What I don't understand is incels who put down women because if that's what they think, why flirting up women in the first place?!

@darksideofyay they do listen. I think the problem is, the site's made by 2 devs as a side project, they've both got day jobs. It's basically free without ads. There's maybe 100 people that chip in a couple of bucks a month, so there's not a huge budget either. But community moderators would be a good idea.

@Fast-Nop it's mostly a hive mind thing... don't try to apply logic to incels, it doesn't match

@atheist i think community moderators would be great, it fits the app really well!
that reminds me of the shinigami eyes extension for tumblr actually, the trans community itself moderates it to filter transphobic blogs

@atheist Community moderation would require a whole lot. I am actually moderator in another tech community, and it's... difficult. You have to get the community to vote for moderators, and also get the community to vote for by-laws for the moderators to stick to, and it's a lot of process that this platform doesn't even have the infrastructure for.

And I still regularly have to turn down moderation requests, pointing out that the posting under review does not violate the by-laws - even when I hate both the poster and that posting.

@Fast-Nop yah, I get that. I have helped moderate a group of 200 ADHD people, and a sports club of horny 20 something students. We avoided those levels of formality, we just went with "don't be shit", and if you see it, you know it. I get why that type of structure evolves tho.

That's where my "peace stick" skills evolved. Normally I'm very diplomatic, just not so much lately.

@Fast-Nop the moderation could be something you subscribe to, that's why I've mentioned shinigami eyes, it is optional, that way there could be less formalities

like a block option, except you don't have to see and block every a**hole, you just check a box in the menu options

@darksideofyay In that case, I'd even prefer the good old Usenet way with a client-side ignore profile. There are not that many assholes here.

@Fast-Nop i think tumblr is a great case study for this stuff, because the site is so broken that the community created a ton of tools to patch it up into something usable 😂 one other extension that is pretty popular over there allows to filter certain tags, so people can avoid their triggers

Right I gotta go to bed, have to sleep at some point. Night folks!

💕💕

One thing I noticed in a lot of workplaces in North America (or maybe I just worked at shit companies, who knows?) is they kinda always lean towards diversity hiring and bullshit politics to the point where me asking my colleague if they merged on master could be found as offending, but there still are blatant inequities and unfair treatments for arbitrary reasons that people cannot control in the end.

We are just basically pretending everything is fine when it could be better, but offenders are still hard to take down.

? ? ?

@johnmelodyme you're kinda late john

@PepeTheFrog
It is important to phrase such questions correctly. Instead of "Have you merged on master?" you should use the phrase "As the master, we hereby allow him to merge his changes into our branch for further inspection. He has to report when he has done so!"
Proper protocol matters too.

@darksideofyay time is relative. I wasn't late is just the earth a little bit slow, so it affect my time zone. 😜

@johnmelodyme time zone of 2 weeks

@darksideofyay yes.