every programmer starts with html.

so why is it not considered as programming language?

@DudeCoder sorry, but most of in my knowledge does

I'm just sayin...

it's the starting point of most of the programmers for their programming life

@DudeCoder you're right,

i didn't see it that way

@RantSomeWhere actually some people says that it's a programming language, that's why i asked

Just like the guy from university, who told me he's now a programmer. He's studying economics, so I asked what he means. He said, he programmed a report in LaTeX :D HE WAS SO PROUD.

@roh1tsa1n1 What's HTML?

Hypertext
Markup
Language

The first sentence on Wikipedia states the following: HTML is the standard markup language(with link to markup language def) for creating webpages.....

So please, research.
You're displaying a large amount of unwillingness, to do do the slightest amount of thinking & research.

At least it’s turing complete (together with css) :p

i have an challenge for you:
you must write an program in pure html with the following conditions:
1. the text "HTML is a programing language" must only 1 time defined in the source code.
2. when the program is executed, it must write the text 10 times on the output.

@stop if I can use CSS, I will do that

@BambuSource nope

The definition of "programming language" depends on the author, but to be concise, for a language to be considered as programming it must allow the declaration of instructions directed towards an algorithmic operation.

Thus, for example, programming languages ​​contain structures such as loops, the possibility of creating functions / methods that return a result, allow the use of Boolean comparisons, and so on.

Let's not get into the differences between languages ​​of the first, second, third ... and other generations. Simply, HTML is a markup language and that's fine, it's for what it serves as all of the ramifications of SGML and XML. But you don't do HTML programming: you do HTML coding.

I started programming with C, not HTML(besides as everyone else said, not a programming language).

I guess I started with Robot Karol lol

I am seriously offended by this post

@ruhe I'm sorry for that

I started with notepad++

@roh1tsa1n1 don’t worry people are nice here

wtf....I started with java
also it says in the name :MARKUP LANGUAGE

@roh1tsa1n1 don't take it personal. And as I see, you agreed on the opinion that not all devs started programming with a markup language in previous comments

even if... every cook starts preparing a dish with boiling water, doesnt make boiling water a meal right?

i didn't mean to offend anyone.

I'm sorry if i did.

I just wanted to clear my doubt, that's all.

@Jilano thanks 😁

I have never touched html in my entire life until like 2 weeks ago (against my will btw) and I made a B.Sc. in CS.

Also I participated in several beginner-programming-workshops for kids when I was younger and even made some myself, and never ever was html even mentioned. What makes you think people start there? o.o

HTML is just as much programming as "programming" a thermostat is :)

@stop easy
10 iframes with src to .html file containing that text 😂

@roh1tsa1n1 still a vastly innacurate blanket statement

@BambuSource it's even more Turing complete if you added javascript

I do agree to some extent. HTML (as has been repeated *approximately* 348924 times in the comments here already) is obviously not a programming language. HOWEVER, it was the gateway into actual programming for me, as learning about HTML lead to learning about CSS, which in turn got me into JavaScript.

I don't really know what happened after that, but somewhere between then and now I ended up waist-deep in Python... Feels good though. :)

I think it's the fact that HTML is taught to middle school kids in Computer classes that's making you think that way. Some continue with that, some don't. That's my take on it

I started with java not with html and its a hypertext "MARKUP LANGUAGE"

I actually learned HTML last as I was transitioning to learning/becoming a web developer after some JavaScript.

I started creating html through JavaScript create element stuff. Same with css, I would assign properties through JavaScript.

I started with Delphi.

HTML barely was a thing for me, since when I got in that age homepage building sets were already a thing.

@inaba There’s no such thing as “more Turing complete”. A language either is or isn’t Turing complete.

@devios1 well if you go from being able to build no Turing machines to building one I'd say that's more Turing complete. And when you're able to build fives of them, then it's even more

@inaba This isn’t up for debate. It’s the definition of the term. Turing completeness is a boolean property. When you add the final feature that leads to Turing completeness, the language simply becomes Turing complete (not “more” Turing complete as that would imply it was “partially” Turing complete before, which is not possible). Adding new features to an already Turing complete language does nothing to the Turing completeness. It doesn’t gain any more power. It’s precisely as Turing complete as it was prior.

Furthermore, if you can build one Turing machine, you can build 5. That’s what Turing complete means: it meets the minimum definition of a computer/language. That’s why it uses the word “complete”: because once it’s Turing complete, it’s done. There’s no such thing as more or less Turing complete: something either is or isn’t.

@inaba A Turing complete language has to be able to compute anything that's been thrown at it. It has to have the ability to do decision-making (conditional branching), the ability to assign values to variables, the ability to perform math, all of what you could do on an infinitely long piece of magnetic tape with data on it that you can read and write on.

Once a language (or a piece of hardware like the Analytical Engine or whatever) is able to do that, it's Turing complete. Not a bit Turing complete, entirely and it's got to satisfy the all requirements for it. It has to be able to compute. Just black and white like that - binary, one could say.

Professor Brailsford explains the Turing Machine and Turing completeness very well here: https://youtube.com/watch/...

HTML is a programming language. Yep, it’s declarative and non-Turing complete, but it doesn’t kicks it out of the league.

Markup is just subset of declarative programming.

@uyouthe ???

@ruhe just google Declarative programming

@uyouthe I guess with that definition, JSON is a programming language as well?

@ruhe yes. It’s simple declarative language that describes data.

@ruhe think un-con-ven-tionally

@roh1tsa1n1 did you just assume my language?

Just kidding, welcome to devrant. And no not all programmers/ developers start with HTML. Not even all web developers start with HTML

@uyouthe I guess you are right. I'd still not count HTML as a programming language but under that definition, it might be correct

@ruhe we don’t even need a working compiler/interpreter to count some notation as a programming language. Once upon a time there was Algol, which was just too ahead of its time, and it just existed as a standard without working implementation. It still counted as programming language.

So, html has its interpreter – the browser – and you know it. HTML also follow its own standards and makes things happen and appear just as described. Yep, it’s not turing-complete, but there are several programming languages that are just the same.

HTML also follows declarative hyperparadigm, so it’s programming language all the way.

I started from the bottom now im here.

@SpaceBearOne I think you are a bit late. The turing discussion is already over

I started programming even before html existed... So, not totally true I guess 😄

@z00l how old are you and what did you start with, if I may ask?

@DudeCoder I started with swift :P

I started with LOGO (turtle graphics)

HTML is declarative yes, but it’s not a programming language unless it’s Turing complete. I mean that’s really the whole point Turing was trying to establish: the minimum computer, if you will. If something isn’t Turing complete it really can’t be considered a true programming language, declarative or otherwise.

For example, given an array of values, compute and output the average, mean and mode of those values.

It’s conceivable that a declarative language could do that, maybe something like so:

<label>Avg: {inputs.sum / inputs.length}</label>

…but not HTML on its own, because it has no means to represent something like the above (not without JavaScript anyway, which is a Turing complete language).

The truth is HTML will never be a programming language because it has no need to be one: it has JavaScript for that.

HTML didn't exist when I started

"Assumptions are the mother of all fuck up"-Deniro.

I started with VB.net

@DudeCoder Aww hell yeah! Changing my resume right now to say I have 2 years Hypertext Machine Learning experience!

Programming Languages are different.

You don’t program anything in it. It’s a HyperText MARKUP Language, not HTPL.

You use it to structure elements. The actually programming and manipulation of them is handled by other languages.

I started with C
Well, Pascal, but c'mon

what of we use css and JavaScript in it?

@DudeCoder you're welcome 😁😆

@roh1tsa1n1 those aren’t HTML

@arjaycodes but we use those in HTML code

I'm really really really triggered now

@roh1tsa1n1 you use it in tandem, but html is still not being “programmed”. You’re writing html code, but programming in JavaScript.

@roh1tsa1n1 You use HTML code to point to them. HTML itself doesn’t use them, the browser does.

@Oel2 why does Pascal not count for you?

Hmtl is not a programming language. And my first language was sql. Also not programming but definitely not html.
Programming-wise it was visual basic.

@jonii it does. I started with it in college just for learning purposes. Then we went C. But now I feel old

now I'm hoping to get devrant stickers

I started with javascript

@roh1tsa1n1 Oh BTW. Welcome, please Google/DuckDuckGo your questions and read what wikipedia/Stack Overflow or where ever you find answers says before mindlessly asking.

As you'll probably find out, if you keep learning programming: finding others questions and the answers are a big part of learning this skill.
Your question is asked a lot and that's just fine regarding having to get into the field. But please take this as an experience and continue asking, just do it on a search engine first; your questions has most likely been asked and more importantly answered! Most of the time, in a way that you'd understand better than the responses here 😅 I apologise my 'rudeness' from earlier - I just wanted to point out that this exact question is redundant and will get answered by spending 2 minutes on Wikipedia.

@arjaycodes Before ES5 or after?

@kaloxy way before.

@roh1tsa1n1 no, either your rant deserves the 30++ or it doesn't. Don't beg.

Not trying to be mean, just is how it is.

@uyouthe by that definition, any data encoded with some protocol is a programming language. Because JPEG files are"interpreted" by an image viewer, or an MP3 file by a media player, heck even a TCP packet hitting your router, or a Bluetooth A2DP packet hitting your headset..

Those are not programs, they're payload. On their own none of those examples can do anything. A program has to be able to do logic of its own, which media files or any other payload can't. Yes they can cause the media player or the router or whatever to do different things, but only because those media players and routers are programmed to do so - that's their logic.

Let me say it again: payload is not a program. Declarative programming by that definition is thus bullshit.

@jonii you're right,

sorry about that

@Condor no, because declarative and/or data description programming languages differ from said encoding formats just by the fact that they are human-readable.

Programming languages are designed for humans. Encodings are designed for machines.

@uyouthe an email is human-readable text, and is declarative in the sense that it describes to mail servers and clients what to do. But is it a program of its own?

@Condor emails is a subset of much larger protocol and you know it. And as long as some “code” written in compliance with this protocol’s standards can be interpreted, this is some weird kind of “programming language”.

@uyouthe being a postmaster myself, I can't say that there's much more to email than passing text files from server to server with SMTP (which is a fairly simple protocol) and presenting those files to clients when they request them. There's not much to it. Well maintaining the servers and additional verification methods (SPF, DKIM, DMARC etc) is quite complicated, but email itself isn't.

As for the weirdness of that definition of calling arbitrary data (such as HTML) "declarative programming", you are absolutely right. That's exactly my point actually.

@uyouthe You should probably just quit while you’re behind. This isn’t an argument you’re going to win.

And you still haven’t told me how you would find the mean, median or mode of an array of values using only HTML.

@Condor @devios1

Everything that is human-readable, follows standards and makes computer do something may be considered as programming language. But, typically something meant to do a very specific tasks such as email delivery isn’t considered a programming language. But speaking of something more general-purpose, why not?

The argument was should we consider html as programming language or not. It’s definitely general purpose. It follows standards. It’s human readable. It makes computer do predictable things. So, why not?

Come on, just google “declarative programming”. It’s usually a thing that’s very hard to wrap head around, but once you understand it, you’ll be able to see the entire paradigms landscape differently.

@devios1 prolog, being a programming language, doesn’t have arrays at all.

I made exactly the same html and arrays mistake at seventh grade, just playing around with Pascal and trying to understand html. I just didn’t quite understand declarative paradigm back then

@uyouthe email is literally to the likes of Thunderbird what web pages are to the likes of Firefox...

HTML is not a programming language, it's a markup language. The skeleton of a webpage. It's important to the webpage just as much as a skeleton is to the human body. But it's just as much a programming language as the brain is to the spine. Both are important but shouldn't be confused with one another.

HTML can't do logic, therefore it's not a Turing complete programming language. But if you make websites using HTML, CSS and JS.. well there's better ways to do it, but while that doesn't make you a programmer, it does make you a web developer.

That said, I'm gonna make myself some food. Ciao!

@Condor both Wikipedia and common sense tells that a programming language doesn’t need to be Turing-complete to be considered programming language.

Markup is also a subset of declarative programming.

Common sense tells me that Turing completeness defines whether something is a programming language. As I said countless times, a programming language has to be able to do logic operations and solve actual problems.. or in other words, compute the answer to it without the help of a web browser, a mail client or whatever.

By your logic of declarative programming, any payload is a programming language. Next you're gonna say that my energy drink is a programming language because it can declare to my body to stay awake? For fucks sake... I'm so fucking done with this.

@uyouthe Before I walk away from this shit circus, let me just say that I am well aware of what declarative programming is. I am in fact writing a declarative language at this very point in time.

I also studied Computer Science and know the meaning of being Turing complete. You clearly do not.

These will be my last comments on this post because I’ve had enough of this pointless arguing. I’m not sharing this because I want to win an argument. Understand these are not *my* definitions. These are the established principles of our field. I studied this stuff for years and simply wanted to help you understand something you (forgive my bluntness) clearly do not.

So I understand you have your strong opinions and it’s great that you are that impassioned about it, but like I said earlier you are wasting your time arguing this particular point. This stuff has already been solved.

In short, Turing demonstrated that once a computer/language is able to achieve certain key minimum requirements (memory, decision making, etc.), it becomes capable of solving *any* solvable problem. The Turing machine was his example of a laughably simple machine that he *proved* could solve any problem any fancier computer could.

This is why things like emulators are possible. One of the coolest things I remember doing in school was to implement a Turing machine emulator inside a Turing machine. That was the moment it really clicked for me.

How you represent the information is up to you, but *any* Turing complete language would have *some* means to represent an array of values, even if it’s not necessarily fundamental to the language (look at a Turing machine—it is not a very friendly language but it could emulate your fancy i7 running Linux if it wanted to).

As I said, HTML is most certainly declarative. I’m not arguing that. But it is not *programmable* and therefore not a *programming* language because it is not Turing complete. It’s missing a part of that mathematically important “recipe” of what defines a programmable computer.

Starting to think

@devios1 I clearly understand you. I also have CS degree.

I don’t need to win if my words make you say things like “you clearly do not”.

@Condor #MonsterEnergyscript

@uyouthe Having a CS degree does not make you smart or able to understand things. Being able to stand by your opinions and logically argue about your opinions and knowledge, does make the impression of being smart and able to understand things.

I'm here now & I haven't had enough. Please answer to me. I fully belive that you understand something. Please elaborate.

@arjaycodes that'd be one hell of an energetic language 😂

@Kandelborg truth. We just interviewed a guy with a CS degree who couldn’t solve a standard fizz buzz. Not even a modified one. The kind you can google.

@Kandelborg I’m working on detailed description, digging some CS scientists citations and consulting with fellow smart guys. Wait for it, it’ll be separate rant. I’d mention you too

@Kandelborg spoiler: CS big guys are arguing just like us here

@jonii I’m 41 and started with basic on a Commodore VC20 (I think it was called C20 outside of Germany)