I worked on a greenfield project a couple of years ago. The company had an old solution written in Omnis (heard of it? Yeah, me neither) with an SQL database. My team was to create a completely new web based system... on top of the old database, so the customers could keep their existing stuff.

The dba was an intelligent man, one of the nicest people I've met, and over the course of fifteen years he had made a remarkably terrifying monstrosity of a database. Some years before me they wanted to "future proof" the system and make it "easier to switch to new technologies". So they moved the entire business logic into the database...

I used a tool to create a visualization of said database when we started. It had no views, only tables and sprocs. Look at it! Tables and sprocs are rectangles (well, dots) and any connections are drawn in grey lines. There were no foreign keys, so a tables only visualization only yielded a collection of independent rectangles without a single line.

Now, the stored procedures were bloody MASSIVE. A single procedure that only registered a new interested party and attached them to a property had 2500+ lines and over 150 parameters.

Also, this dba added features and fixed bugs by logging into the respective customers production server and writing SQL.

That database is the stupidest thing I've ever seen a developer do.

Awkward recruiting process? Sit the fuck back!

So about a year ago I got laid off. I got some help setting up LinkedIn and realising I'm not trash and offers to talk started flowing in.

So this consultancy firm asks me to come in for a talk and having nothing better to do I oblige - they're working on big, exciting Greenfield stuff and I'm amazed they want me.
Fast forward the most nervous week in my life and the HR assistant brings me into the meeting room, I get some water and a nice first impression - also my last. I wait in the room for five minutes.

In walks madam HR, madam Team lead and miss assistant from before, all carrying big ass laptops. We shake hands and they sit down and all open up their laptops between me and them - I just sit there feeling naked with my block of paper and pencil I brought.

So we wait for their machines to start up and madam HR just starts throwing questions at me and seemingly noting my answers into a sheet. Meanwhile madam Teamlead is busy on her phone most of the time and my most human interaction remains smalltalk and questions between me and miss assistant.

I did manage to get madam Teamlead to look up from her phone when I asked how they felt about the fact that I have no formal training and would need to pick up a lot of skills as we go, to which she said something along 'well this ain't a candy shop, we expect you to work' and looked back down at her phone.

A bit shaken, I agreed to stay for the technical test (apparently I passed the interview...)
Now this test was designed by their CTO since he didn't feel like any of the available tests on the market could properly judge applicants' skilllevels. Yes, alarms went off already at that point.

What I'm presented with is a word document with questions, and another for answers and... It's just string gymnastics and reference/value difference knowledge - shit it takes you a split second to look up or test if you ever get into these insane cases where you need to know. And then there was a likewise one with sql statements that was also just convoluted query gymnastics and trying to hide changes in the seemingly same statement through various questions. No questions on design, no problem solving, just... Attention span testing with a dash of coding?

Anyway, it turned out they had evening and weekend shifts and round the clock support tournus which on top of the ridiculous recruitment process and way lower than average salary offer had me turn them down.

Don't enable bullshit people, run away!

Flexible working hours, Home Office, fair compensation, working on a greenfield product 🥰.

I was in a bad spot two years ago jobwise and I don't regret jumping the ship for a second.

I would never have guessed that flexible hours and WFH would be so beneficial to my mental health!

Not everything is perfect all the time, but it gets pretty damn close all things considered.

My company has two offices in separate cities but they treat each the devs of each location very very differently.

In one office the devs get full power to experiment with whatever tech they want, they just stomp their feet and management gives em whatever they ask for, freedom of choice regarding anything they are working on, to be allowed to do greenfield work or experimental stuff

But in my office we are forced to do ONLY. Bug fixing and refactoring shitty code from over a decade a go, our tech is ancient and we are not allowed to to
Shit , anything we ask for is denied
And improvements to our process is shut down with the reasoning that whatever we got works so why meddle ??

For us , management is solely focussed on making sure we respond to support calls , deployments , configurations and little bug fixing. Basically they only care that we manage to finish for out next delivery.
No new work whatsoever!
If there is any hint of something new to to
Implemented the golden boys from the other office just stopm their feet tillmthey get it or just go off and start working on it then seek permission afterwards, with their much larger team they obviously get further than we do by the time management hears about it so they end up taking over the work since they already have more done already

My manager decided to push us to attend a company devCon to share ideas with our devs from our other location. This rapidly turned into a sour experience

Basically we do all shitty boring work which puts money on the table which goes straight to those idiots to play with...

They have the guts to laugh when we mentioned that we never get anything interesting to work on

Never seen so many of our devs looking up job sites on the bus back...
This is gonna blow up in management's face...

naiive idealism to the max:

medior+senior to junior: "hey, buddy, we need you to do this, here's the codebase, here's the button, here's what needs to happen when that button is clicked, here's the relevant files and classes, make it happen."

medior to senior: "so what you just said about how we should redo the whole order processing pipeline, na-ah, not possible. i've been in those parts of the code many times, and based on what i've seen, you either leave that thing mostly alone or nuke it from orbit and build a completely new module in its place, but these "medium adjustments" you're proposing... not feasible...

senior to medior: "okay, i've seen how slow your progress was on even the most basic-sounding bugs in those systems... looks like what you're saying makes sense."

senior to *EO: not possible to just do these changes with this budget and deadline, that wouldn't even cover the "unexpected bugs" overhead, either you let us do it properly as a new greenfield project, almost, or you're stuck with what we've got.

*EO: mmmkay, so that's 20 times more time and budget that is in the proposal?

senior: yup, something around those numbers.

*EO (with a pained but understanding expression) : go for it, imma explain to the rest of the EOs at the end-weeks's meeting.

My boss's SQL schema has no foreign keys and he said he left them out intentionally because they should be handled in the application layer and they're a large performance impact.

This is a fresh greenfield project and he's already pre-optimizing for problems we don't have yet, on things that may or not be bottlenecks using ideas (e.g. foreign keys have huge performance costs on mariadb/auora) with no hard data or facts to back them up.

Let's start a new project with some technical debt!

Don't get stuck maintaining legacy stuff.

If you move to new, preferably greenfield dev every so often then you'll naturally keep with the times (at least if you're working in a vaguely decent team.) If you stick in one place too long and get stuck maintaining legacy crap, then that will be your focus, and that will be where your knowledge sticks.

$ npm init
Let's do this!

Hey DevRant, this is my first time working collaboratively on a project with Git and I'd like to know what's the best strategy to adopt.

Is it that every member has their own branch on origin that they push to, then we meet and plan out merges when it's time to release? Or does everyone just push to master, but stash or commit their local changes before they pull?

It's a Greenfield project, with just a bare repository on the central server. It's an MVC app where I've decided to do the View & Controller portions and the other person is doing Models and data services layers.

Are there any developers out there interested to start a repo on GitHub, we build something cool for fun(also good for sparring)?

"Delete all code!" That should be the mantra!

Was watching some stuff from destroyallsoftware.com. Not entirely convinced. So I should cook up my own shit.

So here is how the argument goes:
There's quite some negativity in the term "legacy" software. Partly it may be the envy to software that runs on actual machines and is not that phantasm, that perfect first lines on a greenfield project until it gets messed up as it has to put up with all the real world messiness. But the negativity it deserves is actually for the code that we cannot get rid of. This ugly class or function that soaked all the complexity and functionality so it defies any positive change. And always when it appears on your screen, it irks you, enrages you, makes you punch the screen, because you can almost feel the distaste physically. - *That* is the definition of "legacy" in its true negativity. No software should be like that. On the contrary. Every line should be replaceable, dispensable, disposable. At the verge to deletable. Because you know: the best code is no code.

This is where my hatred of code could get productive: Delete all the wretched, loathsome stuff and replace it, with something that just sucks less and can be thrown away any time. Don't expect beauty or perfect design. It'll never finish.

What do you get when you combine a greenfield project with a brownfield project?

A stinking pile of compost.

I hate the fucking Spring WebFlux and the goddamn Project Reactor on which it depends!
Even debugging a simple CRUD microservice with simple business logic is such a pain in the ass, exception handling has a lot of "magic" implicit stuff which makes me waste hours in fucking trial & error and I have to use very little breakpoints because if a request is paused for more than few seconds it gets terminated.
I love functional programming but why shove it in fucking Java making me waste 90% of my time in trying to guessing what the fucking framework is doing, why not just use Scala which runs in the JVM? We don't even need compatibility with legacy code since it's a greenfield project!

And before you ask yes, I read a fucking book about Project Reactor and Java reactive programming and a lot of docs on Spring, Spring Boot and Spring Web Flux.

[Equifax Recruiter] - Hi, we have an exciting opportunity for you here at Equifax! Innovative... blah blah... J2EE... blah blah... latest technologies... blah blah... greenfield... blah... CORBA... (ok, there wasn't any CORBA)
[Me] - Oh Equifax... how did you get my details?
[ER] - ...

Every single morning I despair. I can’t stand this job.
Why pay very highly and get very skilled people to have them working 4 to a support ticket. Doing the most mundane support tickets you have ever seen in your life (mainly updating client contact details)?
And why have such a rigorous recruitment process to get people’s in in the first place?

The company is pissing money away by working like this and all the new starters like me think it’s complete shit.
But the bosses and anyone who’s been here a while think it’s great. Company still is making loads of money so they don’t even care about it.

I’ve never met senior developers who have never worked on a greenfield project in their entire careers until I came here.

I can’t believe how I got suckered into this (was head hunted).

Does anyone have a feel for the UK contracting market right now?

I’m considering the jump but I think I’d have to be looking for remote only contracts because where I live has few opportunities ‘on-site’. Preferably c# / angular.

Is there much competition for roles or is there a shortage of skills in the contractors?

The thought of going into another permanent role that could be as bad as this genuinely keeps me awake at night.
I’m not sure I can go somewhere and then have it in the hands of managers to decide what projects I’m going to do and what tech it will be on.

At any big company there’s going to be tech debt as well as new work. So becoming perm now feels like it’s 50-50 whether or not a new job will just mean being put into legacy stuff for a couple of years or doing something that is actually good.

I’ve been talking various people about roles in government departments (multiple different departments are hiring) and because priorities change none the gov recruiters can guarantee what the work is that they’re recruiting for actually is.
Just that the the big recruitment push is to bring work previously done by consultancies back in house. Presumably because consultancies have been fleecing them.

Junior Dev about 18months in my current job and I've got a problem

Started to feel not wanting to code at work, despite working on a greenfield project thats critical and using new tech. I get a little defensive about PR's over stupid small things (PR was once rejected due to auto indentation "not to standard").

Talked with boss (who I get on well with and like) and thinks my problem is I've lost confidence coding. Trys to get more senior Dev to on side to help me out more.

Same senior Dev is really close with other junior on my team - pair on alot of stuff all the time, have lunch and spend free time together, and will work way past working hours just to try and finish something that day (even though it's not due that day).
(Probs working ~60h weeks, where as I'm ~42h and contracted for 37h. I'll work on if I need to but tries to have balance)

Senior and other junior tend to ignore tickets on the board, do the work and then when I pick it up they say "I did that last night". No docs, no PR for me to ask about how it was done (as they merged it themselves). (They have previously completely refactored my branch in the past overnight then not told me atall)

I'm not saying its favouritism here, but I'm not happy with the situation. I feel I can't ask questions as they are always together or they discuss the problem themselves and just give me the answer (not really acknowledging my points). I dont tend to ask for help from this senior Dev now as I don't feel it's worthwhile learning wise for me.

Other people in the team are great but working on other aspects so not a direct one-to-one alignment (others are DB Dev & principal senior dev)

Furthermore I'm wanting to possibly work on full stack web or more architecture stuff, both which are not in my current teams remit (backend up to API).

So - what do I do? Try and remedy the situation in the current team as best as or look for a new teams as cut my losses.

I'm torn between the 2 and I'm unsure how to get out this rut. I feel I need to find a solution to this soon though

(Sorry for the long rant folks)

I just had a thought about what may set good and not so good developers apart...

I'm now 30 and for the past 3-4 years, I haven't done any more big personal projects. But at work, going on and on about good coding practices and making sure things are done right, more time spent upfront on design than coding, etc. And doing the greenfield stuff.

And I feel like maybe there biggest difference is that I started to code as a kid... And making those mistakes early and learning all the different things have a compounding effect.

So if we all become slower and even stagnant at 30 in picking stuff up... I'm always going to have this advantage/lead (skill/experience gap)

Or maybe in just rambling and getting nowhere....

Right guys and gals, I need your opinions.

Recently was approached by a recruiter who thought I’d be a good fit for a role, a role that is a step up from senior dev but without moving into people / project management.
More like a bridge between architects and senior devs.

I thought what the hell, why not. So I agreed to go for it.
It could be quite a decent payrise (though that wasn’t my motivation for going for it) and I like the idea of doing more mentoring, design and research than I do now. It would involve stuff like learning new tech, coming up with examples and implementations of how the dev team need to use it to churn out user stories.

For the last few years I’ve been mainly a back end developer, which didn’t start by choice and I always liked to be full stack.

But the recruitment process for this role has been quite slow (number of reasons) and since then I’ve been given a new piece of work at my current employer doing some greenfield angular work, plus the c# back end.

I’m really, really enjoying this angular work. Haven’t done it for a while and it feels great to get back into it. Seem to be picking it back up with no problems, like the old magic is still there.
Also the money at my current place is good enough.

So now I’m wondering if I should bail on this other role in favour of seeing this out and maybe going back to being full stack (tho for reasons I’ll outline below in the long term that might have to be elsewhere)

But I’m also trying to remind myself that up until enjoying this work there’s a reason I decided to go for this other role.
Current place is a small company that has no project management process. It’s chaos, and everything’s an emergency. There are no requirements for anything, not enough people etc. No one has a clue how to run an IT project.
The one thing we do have is good development practices in our team and we have been greenfield for the last 12 months working on a new product. But we do tend to be pigeon holed into looking after a specific service/area.

But this new place if I got the role, is a bigger company (I’ve worked in small, medium and massive companies so I know what the difference is like), they’re a household name, they have resources for learning, putting people through aws certs, etc. They give people time each week to invest in themselves. Much more agile.
And thinking about it now you don’t often see a role that allows you to ‘move up’ without having to take on people/project management and still having time to be hands on.
(Just maybe more hands on with strategic work than delivering user stories for business as usual)

So just in general, what do you think?

Just about to go in to start a new contract on a greenfield project, using ES5. What is this, the fucking dark ages? I'm not even sure what isn't ES5 anymore...many fails ahead.

archeological work is painful and difficult

people in industry don't seem to emphasize/warn how much archeological work there is in being a code monkey

or are there jobs that don't involve it? i imagine the skill remains essential

greenfield work to be the exception not the norm, and start up life is hell and a gamble

interview process seems to completely disregard this, as i imagine it'd be difficult to assess, unlike leetcoding linked lists or code golfing stuff without using data structures, or whatever awful things they ask for in leetcode hards or whatever

Worst:
Working on a C# project that took ages (to the point it burnt me out) not long after dealing with a relatively simple static site project that ended up incomplete because one of the team members couldn't be arsed in providing the info needed.

Best:
Working on a project where I get to put my UI/UX, software architecture and fullstack dev skills to the test on a problem I have may benefit others, as I started a new job that pays well.