My asshole coworkers talking about how programmers without a degree are worth shit and cannot achieve anything in industry besides working from startup to startup.

Well, surprise, I'm sitting right next to them, in the same big company and I don't have ANY higher education at all.

Just because I prefer more hands-on experience than theory stuff doesn't make me worse developer than those bastards. I just learn more from working on something, than from sitting in classroom and taking notes.

Fortunately people at HR and boss also valued my previous experience when they hired me, but now having to work with those guys every day is killing me.

So I've been looking for a Linux sysadmin job for a while now. I get a lot of rejections daily and I don't mind that because they can give me feedback as for what I am doing wrong. But do you know what really FUCKING grinds my FUCKING gears?

BEING REJECTED BASED ON LEVEL OF EDUCATION/NOT HAVING CERTIFICATIONS FOR CERTAIN STUFF. Yes, I get that you can't blindly hire anyone and that you have to filter people out but at least LOOK AT THEIR FUCKING SKILLSET.

I did MBO level (the highest sub level though) as study which is considered to be the lowest education level in my country. lowest education level meaning that it's mostly focused on learning through doing things rather than just learning theory.

Why the actual FUCK is that, for some fucking reason, supposed to be a 'lower level' than HBO or Uni? (low to high in my country: MBO, HBO, Uni). Just because I learn better by doing shit instead of solely focusing on the theory and not doing much else does NOT FUCKING MEAN THAT I AM DUMBER OR LESS EDUCATED ON A SUBJECT.

So in the last couple of months, I've literally had rejections with reasons like
- 'Sorry but we require HBO level as people with this level can analyze stuff better in general which is required for this job.'. - Well then go fuck yourself. Just because I have a lower level of education doesn't FUCKING mean that I can't analyze shit at a 'lower level' than people who've done HBO.

- 'You don't seem to have a certificate for linux server management so it's a no go, sorry!' - Kindly go FUCK yourself. Give me a couple of barebones Debian servers and let me install a whole setup including load balancers, proxies if fucking neccesary, firewalls, web servers, FUCKING Samba servers, YOU FUCKING NAME IT. YES, I CAN DO THAT BUT SOLELY BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THAT FUCKING CERTIFICATE APPEARANTLY MEANS THAT I AM TOO INCOMPETENT TO DO THAT?! Yes. I get that you have to filter shit but GUESS WHAT. IT'S RIGHT THERE IN MY FUCKING RESUME.

- 'Sorry but due to this role being related to cyber security, we can't hire anyone lower than HBO.' - OH SO YOUR LEVEL OF EDUCATION DEFINES HOW GOOD YOU ARE/CAN BE AT CYBER SECURITY RELATED STUFF? ARE YOU MOTHERFUCKING RETARDED? I HAVE BEEN DOING SHIT RELATED TO CYBER SECURITY SINCE I WAS 14-15 FUCKiNG YEARS OLD. I AM FAMILIAR WITH LOADS OF TOOLS/HACKING TECHNIQUES/PENTESTING/DEFENSIVE/OFFENSIVE SECURITY AND SO ON AND YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT I NEED A HIGHER LEVEL OF FUCKING EDUCATION?!?!? GO FUCKING FUCK YOURSELF.

And I can go on like this for a while. I wish some companies I come across would actually look at skills instead of (only) study levels and certifications. Those other companies can go FUCK THEMSELVES.

The state of CS is a joke and I'm contributing to it.

I'm a final year CS student and like most students, I'm not exactly overflowing with money so any income helps. Now, it's not that uncommon for students to buy their projects but I swear a good 20% of people from my course don't know how to write a function. And let me remind you, they are in their final year, about to graduate, about to get their bachelor's degree in computer science and they don't know how to write a function, let alone a class, let alone piece together something that works.

I just want to say that no, I'm not proud of myself for doing other people's projects for money and letting such imbeciles pass. I'm fucking tired of sending over someone's project, them asking me to change something and me telling them to add an if statement to which they reply with "i don't know how, pls do it".

This is why having a degree doesn't mean shit anymore and yes, I'm aware that higher education has become more available over time.

I think the main issue with Computer Science is that it's considered an Academic study, while 99% of work is very much dynamic, quickly evolving and hands-on.

I think all forms of (higher) education should be part time, starting at 4:1 college/work, gradually moving towards the opposite.

Currently, combining work and study is only done for "lower level" education, at least in my country: For example a car mechanic needs to work on actual cars, and barbers need to cut actual hair.

To me, it makes sense if engineers work on actual software, during their education.

It also feeds back into the education itself, when companies are paying for courses and the course doesn't teach practicalities, there's a lot more feedback to the colleges on how to adjust their material.

College can be one of the worst investments for an IT career ever.

I've been in university for the past 3 years and my views on higher education have radically changed from positive to mostly cynical.

This is an extremely polarizing topic, some say "your college is shite", "#notall", "you complain too much", and to all of you I am glad you are happy with your expensive toilet paper and feel like your dick just grew an inch longer, what I'll be talking about is my personal experience and you may make of it what you wish. I'm not addressing the best ivy-league Unis those are a whole other topic, I'll talk about average Unis for average Joes like me.

Higher education has been the golden ticket for countless generations, you know it, your parents believe in it and your grandparents lived it. But things are not like they used to be, higher education is a failing business model that will soon burst, it used to be simple, good grades + good college + nice title = happy life.

Sounds good? Well fuck you because the career paths that still work like that are limited, like less than 4.

The above is specially true in IT where shit moves so fast and furious if you get distracted for just a second you get Paul Walkered out of the Valley; companies don't want you to serve your best anymore, they want grunt work for the most part and grunts with inferiority complex to manage those grunts and ship the rest to India (or Mexico) at best startups hire the best problem solvers they can get because they need quality rather than quantity.

Does Uni prepare you for that? Well...no, the industry changes so much they can't even follow up on what it requires and ends up creating lousy study programs then tells you to invest $200k+ in "your future" for you to sweat your ass off on unproductive tasks to then get out and be struck by jobs that ask for knowledge you hadn't even heard off.

Remember those nights you wasted drawing ER diagrams while that other shmuck followed tutorials on react? Well he's your boss now, but don't worry you will wear your tired eyes, caffeine saturated breath and overweight with pride while holding your empty title, don't get me wrong I've indulged in some rough play too but I have noticed that 3 months giving a project my heart and soul teaches me more than 6 months of painstakingly pleasing professors with big egos.

And the soon to be graduates, my God...you have the ones that are there for the lulz, the nerds that beat their ass off to sustain a scholarship they'll have to pay back with interests and the ones that just hope for the best. The last two of the list are the ones I really feel bad for, the nerds will beat themselves over and over to comply with teacher demands not noticing they are about to graduate still versioning on .zip and drive, the latter feel something's wrong but they have no chances if there isn't a teacher to mentor them.

And what pisses me off even more is the typical answers to these issues "you NEED the title" and "you need to be self taught". First of all bitch how many times have we heard, seen and experienced the rejection for being overqualified? The market is saturated with titles, so much so they have become meaningless, IT companies now hire on an experience, economical and likeability basis. Worse, you tell me I need to be self taught, fucker I've been self taught for years why would I travel 10km a day for you to give me 0 new insights, slacking in my face or do what my dog does when I program (stare at me) and that's just on the days you decide to attend!

But not everything is bad, college does give you three things: networking, some good teachers and expensive dead tree remnants, is it worth the price tag, not really, not if you don't need it.

My broken family is not one of resources and even tho I had an 80% scholarship at the second best uni of my country I decided I didn't need the 10+ year debt for not sleeping 4 years, I decided to go to the 3rd in the list which is state funded; as for that decision it worked out as I'm paying most of everything now and through my BS I've noticed all of the above, I've visited 4 universities in my country and 4 abroad and even tho they have better everything abroad it still doesn't justify some of the prices.

If you don't feel like I do and you are happy, I'm happy for you. My rant is about my personal experience which is kind of in the context of IT higher education in the last ~8 years.

Just letting some steam off and not regretting most of my decisions.

I know I am late to this but I have a happy story for this one.

My first dev job was awesome. Except for the pay. I had interviewed and taken the job based on the fact that I was done with my master's degree, but because of a paperwork snafu I wouldn't be receiving my degree until the spring. I was assured that if I provided proof of my degree when it was awarded I would get a pay rise in relation to my education. Well that was not to be. So this professionally and socially inept bitch I was working with was going to be ahead of me in her career because the people I worked for gave pay raises based on time served rather than ability and education.
So I started interviewing for other positions. Especially after government furloughs cut my pay by 20% for 11 weeks, causing me to max out my credit cards. All of my coworkers had my back. They went to the upper management and the higher ranking military people we worked for and explained the situation. They were my job references for my interviews. They got me a job that paid double what I was making. I still get the warm fuzzies thinking about it.
They were some of the sweetest people I had ever worked with. One of them gave my mom and brother a ride to the airport when I crashed my car. They bought me lunch when I was in dire straights. I really would have loved to stay but I couldn't afford it. That and winter in Utah fucking blows.

I developed and have been maintaining an organization website for the past 6 years for free. The organization gave me a full scholarship 15 years ago which opened up so many doors and allows me to finish high school and college without a single cent, and now I’m living comfortably with good job.
My parents wouldn’t be able to afford me the higher education. So I’m very grateful and paying it forward for the future students.

So I'm at that age of arranged marriage process. It's kinda like dating but even more complicated with more if conditions on religion, caste, region, age and impressions of a third person who may be a mutual relative or acquaintance. And yeah, you have to engage or marry before any kind of intimacy.

Finding a girl of same religion, caste and region is hard enough, ( not a matter for me personally, but it's a factor for families to go along ). I was lucky enough to find this pretty nice girl that seems be the best match I have received in the matrimony site so far.

She's also a programmer which is awesome and together we could also explore the earth as a Digital Nomad if she's also into that.

Here's the deal though, my father is not very keen on next steps in making this partnership ( guys parent calling girls family to know things better ) because apparently she did higher education abroad and works abroad, and I'm not that qualified in terms of education. And on top of that, he worries I'll move abroad leaving everything back at home.

I suppose that's his insecurity showing up.

He doesn't realize working in IT is the most flexible job as proved in 2020 and it's only going to get better in the coming years. We could work from anywhere with the right remote company.

Anyhow, the girl's family found out my number and reached out to me directly. I'm pretty impressed honestly.

I had left little traces on the internet for potential families to find more info about me if they choose to look me up! This was in a way a little filter of my own. Thanks to Google Analytics and Seach Console for helping me to track them XD

I just hope this works out and my father won't mess up my chance for me to get to know this girl better and potentially be with the life partner I dreamed of.

If this won't work out, I'm just gonna live alone rest of my life. The criterias and conditions set by boomers for arranged marriage are very disgusting for my modern mindset.

Best:

Leaving my work in the soul crushing dog eat dog world of transportation and logistics for higher education software for colleges and universities .
I work at a college and I fucking love it and love my team.

Worst:

The soulc crushing dog eat dog world of transportation and logistics where I worked as a backend developer and lead mobile developer. Not only did it made me hate and despise native android development, but it also made me despise the human race as a whole. Watching a motherfucker letting go of employees that he knew personally (as in bbq with their families and shit) because my software automated a large portion of their work(it was meant to make it easier for them for that i was originally told) was absolute and total bullshit and i still carry that fucking remorse with me. After that I vowed never to do that sort of bullshit work again....sort off. No one gets fired at this institition for it. Logistics sucks big monkey dick and the people there are the absolute fucking worst. Every single motherfucker i met was a fucking shark, all of them and they would not think about fucking people over if it saved them some money.

Yeah, that even tops the military and that was fuuuull of fuck fuck games and other similar fuckery.

Sooooo ok ok. Started my graduate program in August and thus far I have been having to handle it with working as a manager, missing 2 staff member positions at work, as well as dealing with other personal items in my life. It has been exhausting beyond belief and I would not really recommend it for people working full time always on call jobs with a family, like at a..

But one thing that keeps my hopes up is the amount of great knowledge that the professors pass to us through their lectures. Sometimes I would get upset at how highly theoretical the items are, I was expecting to see tons of code in one of the major languages used in A.I(my graduate program has a focus in AI, that is my concentration) and was really disappointed at not seeing more code really. But getting the high level overview of the concepts has been really helpful in forcing me to do extra research in order to reconnect with some of the items that I had never thought of before.

If you follow, for example, different articles or online tutorials representing doing something simple like generating a simple neural network, it sometimes escapes our mind how some of the internal concepts of the activity in question are generated, how and why and the mathematical notions that led researchers reach the conclusions they did. As developers, we are sometimes used to just not caring about how sometimes a thing would work, just as long as it works "we will get back to this later" is a common thing in most tutorials, such as when I started with Java "don't worry about what public static main means, just write it up for now, oh and don't worry about what System.out.println() is, just know that its used to output something into bla bla bla" <---- shit like that is too common and it does not escape ML tutorials.

Its hard man, to focus on understanding the inner details of such a massive field all the time, but truly worth it. And if you do find yourself considering the need for higher education or not, well its more of a personal choice really. There are some very talented people that learn a lot on their own, but having the proper guidance of a body of highly trained industry professionals is always nice, my professors take the time to deal with the students on such a personal level that concepts get acquired faster, everyone in class is an engineer with years of experience, thus having people talk to us at that level is much appreciated and accelerates the process of being educated.

Basically what I am trying to say is that being exposed to different methodologies and theoretical concepts helps a lot for building intuition, specially when you literally have no other option but to git gud. And school is what you make of it, but certainly never a waste.

A friend of mine asked me yesterday for help for his bachelor thesis.

He wants to write about MySQL internals in regards to BLOB storage / usage.

We had a veeeerrrry long discussion....

And found a loooot of scary internet pages.

It's so .... Insane....

What some people with doctor titles or higher education generate...

Isn't content. More poo...

Most "blogs" / "articles" or whatever the author named it were missing all kinds of relevant data (version, configuration, anything relevant) but full of opinionated / biased bullshit.

Highlights were:
- we store lot of BLOB data, Backups take long and require more space
(you store additional data in an database, whaddya expect???!!!!)

- interesting guesswork about locking without any reference (interesting since it was sometimes so far away from reality that it looked more like quantum physics)

- storing blobs means that _each_ blob entry will be stored in a separate file (without any reference, but if an RDBMs did that... It would end in an amazing fireball I guess)

- BLOB's bad since it can represent only the file content, the database cannot distinguish wether it's an MP3 / MPG or anything like that...

(Ehm. Yeah. And an database cannot distinguish if you store under "Name" an Name or gibberish?!)

I somehow think that some people made an doctor and post this gibberish nonsense so people stay dumb to give them a job...

Like the TV repair men who steals the batteries from the remote.

Even conspiracy theories were more convincing

One problem for CS education is that the salaries for academia are so low compared to industry that if someone is even vaguely competent, they can at least double their income by working a 'real' job. Now this may be different at higher levels of colleges but generally those folks are such bullshitters they wouldn't last outside of academia.

As what to improve?
Depends if it's a research or vocational course.

For vocational; heavy on group projects, common tools, methodologies and architectures. All demonstrated in something like c#/java/python. And one project must have a web app (db, app layer and JavaScript from end)
Basic knowledge of algorithms, runtime analysis (O notation) and some data structures and you're an instahire.

For research, go wild. Deep dive into the math, algorithmic side. Read up lots of research papers. Try out different programming paradigms. You would aim for a career in academia, AI, quant finance etc...

I got their financial support to pursue higher education in CS and move abroad.
However, I've never really got their constant emotional support. Each decision I was taking, I always had to prove myself, which can be tiring and unmotivating, since I'm expecting uncoditional love and support from my parents, not an interview and a selling pitch for myself every time I tell them something

Conversation with American developers, suddenly we began to talk about college and how in debt they are. I tell them that don't have an education related debt.

They were skeptical at first, but then we found that my entire education costed less than one semester for them. That's one positive thing about living here.

How about you guys? Happy with the cost of higher education where you live?

I spent eight years in college doing very little progress and didn't graduate in the end ("studied" CS). I'm pretty sure I have severe ADHD and can't even afford to try and treat it/medicate it.

Anyway, I understand the eight-years-in-college-without-graduating matter looks very bad on a resume, but it's a good college (one of the top in my country) that gave me invaluable knowledge in what little I managed to accomplish there.

The way in which LinkedIn allows me to put college education only allows me to input (and in fact in most websites it's kinda required) start and end years, but to be truthful I gotta set these years with their huge span and some kind of observation that I didn't graduate...

This really gives me huge anxiety, and discourages me from even applying to jobs at all, feels like I've ruined my chances at getting into the industry, feels like it locks me away from opportunities, and I know how bad it looks for the HR people, who probably just reject me outright because on top of everything I'm not even the kind of person to particularly attract positive attention from the "normies" as they say.

So, should I just not put my incomplete/dragged out "education" on LinkedIn? I'm not sure if *some* CS education with extremely poor academic results is better than showing no history of higher education at all.

some of the smartest people I know are about to fail a CS bachelor's

what the absolute fuck is up with Hungarian higher education

Bruh, I tried so many times to explain a problem that something I could have done in 2 days stretched over a month.

The point was to give them a chance to learn and get familiar with the programming language we use. This task was supposed to have no have no deadline, but it's been too long, so now there's a deadline and the work so far was so unsatisfactory, that I'm rewriting it myself, despite having 3 upcoming deadlines on top the fact that our best engineer will not be there for the next week, just because someone doesn't have the ability to think themselves, even though receiving higher education, even though I always lend them an ear and personally guide them, going as far as giving them a step by step guide, just to be greeted with a something wrong after days of no asking for help, followed by days where I need to explain <20 lines of code for literal hours in hopes they learn how to think for themselves.

Also, I don't know when to finish a sentence

Unpopular Opinion but
sometimes I feel that the pay should be based on how much you contributed to the project not by the titles or your highest education level.

So no fucks given if you are master degree holder or 4yr experience. If you did more work this month, your pay will be higher. If you wasted your whole month browsing reddit your pay will be lower.

First rant! I'm currently on my first actual dev job and I've been learning a ton, doing extra studying/side projects in my free time and office environment is decent with good colleagues!

BUT

1) I'm getting paid about half as much as someone on my level (education and experience considered) - partly my fault, but thought experience would outweight the shit pay, now I'm really starting to question this bullshit

2) I'm away from all my friends, and by the end of my contract, 90% of them would have graduated... Have no friends outside of work where I live, and any social life I had, died when I moved

3) My work project is fucking tedious and could be flipped upside down to be of actual use, but no, company can't change how they've done things for the past 1000 years. But who gives a flying fuck about junior's suggestions, I haven't got decades of experience to back my ideas, plain logic and industry feedback isn't enough

4) Programming 24/7 for months is doing no favours to my hobbies, as I'm either too tired to do anything, or I don't have the time

5) The piece of shit library that I HAVE to use (because alternative has no support, lacks basic documention, the usual...) is built so that any automation that my project is meant to provide, is next to impossible to achieve, so day-to-day I'm just spitting in the wind as I'm slowly falling behind schedule

Quitting isn't really an option, as I'd have to find a job with significantly higher pay, really quickly to benefit from leaving... which is next to impossible

So here I am, stuck between frustration with aspects of my life and being contempt with other half (the learning and programming as a career)...

Is this something that will stay with me throughout my career/life? Or is it simply a shitty-entry-level situation out of which I'll grow out of?

I graduated from my High School last Spring, and since then as a part of a huge overhaul of the education systems, they decided to put the school into the 21st century. The problem? They're doing it all wrong. Every school in the district is acting on its own, making transitions from one grade to another painful. The middle school purchased a cart of iPads despite the fact that Elementary schools use Surface, and the High School uses 2-in-1s. But what makes it worse is the services. The High School used Office365 and OneNote, while the Middle School uses Google Classroom and cloud storage. If the school board wants to make education simpler, modern life, and efficient, the least you could do is have everyone on the same page. Right now, costs are higher, grades are confusing, and efficiency is lower. Each teacher pretty much fends for themselves. I volunteered to help them sort this out by being on the educational committee in charge of the decisions, but I graduated and they felt like they were doing fine. Seriously?

Apprenticeship instead of higher education might be a better mode of 1) learning practical skills rather than academic theory, 2) keeping those learned skills modern rather than stale and outdated, 3) skipping all the hippy-dippy college requirements that don’t actually add value to your career.

So I have two big named companies who have offered me a job after I graduate from college... Choice A is a defense contracting and technology company in the US and is very reputable. While, Choice B is a higher education software company and is reputable but not as popular as choice A.

I enjoy both work and think both would be a great platform for my career, however I don't know how heavy the weight of choice A's (more reputable) name on my resume will carry when applying for mid-career level jobs than Choice B.

Should I even worry about the name of the company?... Or mainly worry about what I would be doing at each company?

I'm finishing my secondary school in a few months and I'm currently unsure what exactly to do after school.
I'm pretty sure I want to become a software developer (maybe frontend UX/UI focused) already but I'm unsure what path to pursue.
As I live in Germany I have the options of either vocational training or studying at a University.
I'm pretty fed up with theoretic work and school right now so I'm tending towards vocational training as it incorporates one or two days of school with working in a company for the rest of the week.
The issue is that I will complete my A levels and therefore be eligible for university education in most relevant courses and have the feeling of wasting possible success in my future career (and maybe life experiences) if I just do the
vocational training.
As most developers here have a long experience as devs I'd like to ask you for advice.
Would you suggest studying something like applied computer science etc. to achieve a successful software developer career and higher wages or is experience more important than higher formal education at university for a developer?

Oh my gosh, no one really knows here what is programming. Even teachers, which claim to be professionals in the subject doesn't know shit except for the basic theory. Nothing in practice.

It was evidenced by the largest job skill competition of Finland (Taitaja) that's for my-aged students (18). And yeah it's not higher education studies, just second degree, but that's where you should get the necessary practical skills for your work life.

The category I participated was website development, which is the only software development category.

It was a public event that is focused on showcasing different jobs. Well, what do programmers do, a viewer may ask. Even the responsible teachers and juries couldn't really answer properly. They just showed the specs we were following to create the crappiest of websites the short period of development time.

So we consume coffee and produce HTML, is that accurate representation of the whole industry?

All the other winners of different categories get a lot of job offers from companies when they win. I won gold last year (bronze this year) and I didn't get a single offer. Who would be interested in human HTML generator who can only make static websites anyway?

Programming is about problem-solving, not about graphic design and writing content.

And just to give you an idea the scale of the competition: last year I made a total of ~2000€ for the victory. And it is super easy if you just know what you are doing. That being graphic design and the making of a static page with a pinch of functionality.

We get our degree from a high-end higher education institution and with it we have proven that we studied Computer Science and a number of important programming languages in-depth.

Now why is it that when we get a job as a Software Developer, that people only seem to value you if you get industry certificates in those programming languages?

I understand a degree forms the basis with which to tackle modern-day software problems, but for your entire education to be practically invisible to stakeholders? That's what seems strange to me. We are valued by the number of certificates we have? Something doesn't add up. The only reason for this I can see is that the Business department hasn't had the thorough STEM education we had and thus thinks we are still novices who need to get 'trained'.

is M.tech or any other Masters degree worth it after Completing graduation in B.tech ? Or should I continue looking for a job (assuming am not placed before my graduation) ?

(small details about me : final year undergrad/ Android dev from India)