I am so happy that everybody is building React apps, angular, vue, svelte. There will be so much money when they ask for upgrade and the only way to upgrade is to rebuild it from scratch.

Mark my words.

I hate hate hate React! Sorry but to me it's just such a bloated pos of a framework. I realize it was pretty revolutionary at first, the idea of having everything "reactive" and all of that - but newer things like Svelte.js are a dream to work with, whereas trudging through the poorly coded React app I'm supposed to be testing for work is making me want to pull my hair out! I installed a vscode tool so everybody could see what the import "cost" is on everything - a simple INPUT is 50KB of pure BLOAT for something that should and can be way simpler.

I realize there are probably better coded apps out there that wouldn't drive me so crazy, but anybody importing hundreds of KB of 3rd party crap just to get a select box, some inputs, and a date picker are really out of their mind.

let RANT = $state(true);

Don't even get me started on frontend engineering right now. It's like the wild wild west out here, with no rules or regulations.

I mean seriously, what is going on with frontend engineering these days? It's like we're stuck in some sort of weird limbo state where nothing seems to make sense and everything is a struggle. And to top it all off, the project I've been working on for the past two years has the same damn issues as an existing codebase that I was hoping to leave behind.

For some reason the npm build runs when container starts. Are you kidding me? Every time I have to restart the app, I have to wait for 30+ minutes just for the damn thing to build. And what's worse, it's not even a complex app. It's a simple frontend for a research website. So why the heck does it take so long to build?

I'll tell you why, because some genius thought it would be a good idea to build the entire codebase every time the container starts. And I have no doubt that this same genius probably thought it would be efficient and time-saving. Well let me tell you, it's neither efficient nor time-saving. It's just plain infuriating.

And don't even get me started on the codebase itself. It's like a labyrinth of tangled and convoluted code (multiple versions of React and now rewriting on Nextjs). Trying to make even the simplest changes feels like unraveling a giant knot (every freaking component have it's only style and everything from React is being used - hooks, Redux, whatever else is popular). And heaven forbid you make a mistake, because then you have to wait another 30 minutes for the whole thing to build and see if your change even worked.

And let's not forget about the old codebase that is still being used, because the new one wasn't ready in time. So we're constantly having to switch back and forth between two different codebases, trying to remember which one has which functionality, and hoping that we don't break anything in the process.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against rewrites. In fact, sometimes they are necessary for a project to move forward. But when frontend engineers can't seem to make up their mind and constantly want to rewrite the code, it's a recipe for disaster.

And don't even get me started on the experience level of the frontend engineers who started this project. Most of them only had 2-3 years of experience (at the time of inception some of them has less than 1 year of experience), and yet they managed to convince management to approve this mess. It's like the blind leading the blind.

But hey, who needs experience and expertise when you have shiny new technologies and frameworks to play with, right? Isn't that what matters most in frontend engineering these days? Keeping up with the latest trends and constantly jumping on the "hype train" without any real understanding of how it will impact the project in the long run.

As a backend engineer (so I kinda don't give a flying freak about frontend) with almost two decades of experience and who was doing frontend with jQuery back in 2005 - that's frustrating and all the inconsistency is literally killing people (a couple of clients literally dropped the contract because of frontend quality).

RANT = false;

PS: why I used Svelte runes? Because some freaking genius suggested to port new (unreleased, only beta version) frontend UI to Svelte 5 because of runes.

I promised myself not to fuck too much with new JS frontends. But Sveltes premise seems interesting enough to check it out and the concept of reactive blocks of code in JS sure is interesting.

This language keeps evolving as well as its tooling. I think shit is pretty amazing.

svelte

So, I've had a personal project going for a couple of years now. It's one of those "I think this could be the billion-dollar idea" things. But I suffer from the typical "it's not PERFECT, so let's start again!" mentality, and the "hmm, I'm not sure I like that technology choice, so let's start again!" mentality.

Or, at least, I DID until 3-4 months ago.

I made the decision that I was going to charge ahead with it even if I started having second thoughts along the way. But, at the same time, I made the decision that I was going to rely on as little external technology as possible. Simplicity was going to be the key guiding light and if I couldn't truly justify bringing a given technology into the mix, it'd stay out.

That means that when I built the front end, I would go with plain HTML/CSS/JS... you know, just like I did 20+ years ago... and when I built the back end, I'd minimize the libraries I used as much as possible (though I allowed myself a bit more flexibility on the back end because that seems to be where there's less issues generally). Similarly, any choice I made I wanted to have little to no additional tooling required.

So, given this is a webapp with a Node back-end, I had some decisions to make.

On the back end, I decided to go with Express. Previously, I had written all the server code myself from "first principles", so I effectively built my own version of Express in other words. And you know what? It worked fine! It wasn't particularly hard, the code wasn't especially bad, and it worked. So, I considered re-using that code from the previous iteration, but I ultimately decided that Express brings enough value - more specifically all the middleware available for it - to justify going with it. I also stuck with NeDB for my data storage needs since that was aces all along (though I did switch to nedb-promises instead of writing my own async/await wrapper around it as I had previously done).

What I DIDN'T do though is go with TypeScript. In previous versions, I had. And, hey, it worked fine. TS of course brings some value, but having to have a compile step in it goes against my "as little additional tooling as possible" mantra, and the value it brings I find to be dubious when there's just one developer. As it stands, my "tooling" amounts to a few very simple JS scripts run with NPM. It's very simple, and that was my big goal: simplicity.

On the front end, I of course had to choose a framework first. React is fine, Angular is horrid, Vue, Svelte, others are okay. But I didn't want to bother with any of that because I dislike the level of abstraction they bring. But I also didn't want to be building my own widget library. I've done that before and it takes a lot of time and effort to do it well. So, after looking at many different options, I settled on Webix. I'm a fan of that library because it has a JS-centric approach. There's no JSX-like intermediate format, no build step involved, it's just straight, simple JS, and it's powerful and looks pretty good. Perfect for my needs. For one specific capability I did allow myself to bring in AnimeJS and ThreeJS. That's it though, no other dependencies (well, at first, I was using Axios because it was comfortable, but I've since migrated to plain old fetch). And no Webpack, no bundling at all, in fact. I dynamically load resources, which effectively is code-splitting, and I have some NPM scripts to do minification for a production build, but otherwise the code that runs in the browser is what I actually wrote, unlike using a framework.

So, what's the point of this whole rant?

The point is that I've made more progress in these last few months than I did the previous several years, and the experience has been SO much better!

All the tools and dependencies we tend to use these days, by and large, I think get in the way. Oh, to be sure, they have their own benefits, I'm not denying that... but I'm not at all convinced those benefits outweighs the time lost configuring this tool or that, fixing breakages caused by dependency updates, dealing with obtuse errors spit out by code I didn't write, going from the code in the browser to the actual source code to get anywhere when debugging, parsing crappy documentation, and just generally having the project be so much more complex and difficult to reason about. It's cognitive overload.

I've been doing this professionaly for a LONG time, I've seen so many fads come and go. The one thing I think we've lost along the way is the idea that simplicity leads to the best outcomes, and simplicity doesn't automatically mean you write less code, doesn't mean you cede responsibility for various things to third parties. Those things aren't automatically bad, but they CAN be, and I think more than we realize. We get wrapped up in "what everyone else is doing", we don't stop to question the "best practices", we just blindly follow.

I'm done with that, and my project is better for it!

I made this simple calculator app using Svelte and Spectre.css and packaged using Tauri.

I hate React. I keep reading that people have problem of grasping it, but that's not the case for me. I get it, I understand it, but I hate with passion HOW it's done knowing how nice it's done elsewhere. What really triggers me is how ugly it looks, both from architecture and code level. To me it really say a lot when even code shown in documentation looks ugly, and while reading it you ask ourself constantly "why it's done this way?". When I read React being called an "elegant" solution something explodes in me. Did you saw Svelte? Vue? Damn, even Alpine.js?
I just cannot how overengineered this API is. Even doing simplest things there produces so much junk code written only because this is what library requires. Why? I feel like working with it is a punishment.
And scalability and maintainability? I've never seen large-scale projects more messed up than those wrote with React. And yes, you can blame teams working on them for lack of skills, but it is the library which encourages or not good practices also, and I've never seen such bad situation with other libraries/frameworks.

About 4-5 hours ago I wanted to make simple websocket to get input from textarea and parse it on server and somehow got myself into developing in asyncio -> aiohttp -> graphql-core -> graphql-ws -> aioredis
and svelte-> typescript
I still didn’t make the stuff I wanted but I’m very close on backend at least.
I have some frontend part somewhere in my old prototypes so it will be faster if I figure out svelte.

Still don’t understand what the fuck just happened.
Maybe it’s because I wanted try those frameworks for a long time.

All ‘simple’ examples I found have around 20-30 files for backend and same amount for frontend so more then 50 files to get this shit working.
They’re called oh irony “simple chat”.
Now I see why no one fucking understands this shit.

I’m trying to cut mine to 5 files.

I thought developers are lazy bastards who don’t like write code.
But now after this they’re all looking like adhd coders.

Looks like Monday won’t be my best day.

i like getting drunk and shitting on all the overly smug idiots on hackernews. sure, they may earn 100x what i do, but it's painfully clear most of them are juniors and have never owned or operated on a large production tech stack in their lives

OOHHHH WOWWWW SVELTE!!!! LOOK!!! WOWWWW!! OMG VUEEEEEEE

its the same over and over again until we all die

🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

go fuck yourself with your fucking communities. i went into computing because i like being left alone. who are all those fucking freaks building their communities? this is capitalism mother fuckers, everybody in the world agreed on it, on each person being an independent individual doing their job to the best possible standard, instead these low-skill low-iq oversocialised sheeple started conglomerate into communities and brainwash everybody that this is what it is about. get stuffed alright. all my life i've been introverted, just leave me alone to write code alright? take my library i don't mind i'll take yours no strings attached, just push the code and forget about it. but no, all these degenerate morons without CS degrees have occupied our safe space, pushed us out of it and just can't get enough of using the buzzword "community-driven" "volunteers" volunteer my ass assholes you can't even make software nobody in real industry needs you because you have no skill at all you learn a bit of js which is any 14-15 yo can do and now think you're some kind of prodigies, unsung heros of humanity who selflessly bring the progress. nothing can be further from the truth - because of you we don't have real software, we don't have investment we don't get no respect everybody walks all over software engineers treating us like shit, there's an entire generation of indoctrinated parasitic scum that believes that software tools is grown for them on trees by some development teams that their are entitled to automatically, because some corporation will eventually support those big projects - yeah does it really happen though - look at svelte, the guy is getting 50k a year when he should be earning at least 500k if he had balls to start a real businesses, but no we are all fucking prostitutes, just slaving away for the army of people we never see. are you out of your mind. this shit should be fucking illegal alright it's modern day slavery innit bruh, if a company wants to pay their engineers to work on open source this is fine, i love open source like java or google closure compiler, but it's real software made by real engineers, but who are all these community freaks who can't spend a 10 seconds on stage in their shitty bogus conferences without ringing the "community" buzzer? you're not my community i fucking hate your guts you're all such dumb womenless imbeciles who justify their lack of social skill by telling themselves that you're doing good by doing open source in your free time - mate nobody gives a shit alrite? don't you want money sex power? you've destroyed everything that was good about good olde open source when it was actually fun, today young people are coerced into slavery at industrial scale, it's literally impossible to make a buck from software as indie unless you build something really big and good, and you can't build anything big without investment and who invests in software nowadays? all the ai "entrepreneurs" are getting fucking golden rained with cash while i have to ask for a 5$ donation? what the actual fuck? who sanctions this? the entire industry is in one collective psychotic delusion, spurred by microsoft who use this army of useful idiots to eliminate all hounour dignity of the profession, drive the abundance and bring about poverty of mind, character, as well as wallet as the natural state of things. fucking amatures of course you love your shitty little communities because you can't achieve anything on your own. you literally have no personality, just one homogenous blob of dumb degenerates who think and act all the same. there used to be a tool called adobe flash builder, i could just buy it, then open and make a web app, all from start to finish in one program, using tutorials of adobe experts on youtube, sure it might have had its pitfals but it was a product - today there's literally no fucking product to make websites. do you people get it? i can't buy a tool that i need to do my job and have to insult myself by downloading some shitty scripts from some shitty unemployed devs and hope my computer doesn't blow up in my face in the process because some freak went off his nut and uploaded some dodgy ass exploit on npm in his package. i really don't like. it's not supposed to be like that. good for me i build by own front/back end. this "community" insanity is just a symptom of industrial degeneration, they try to sell it to us like it's the "bright" communist future but things never been worst, i can't give a shit about functional programming alright i just need to get my job done mate leave me alone you add functional because you don't know how to solve the problem properly, e.g., again adobe flex had mxml where elements had ids and i could just program to id, it was alright but today all this unqualified morons filled the whole space after flash blew up and adobe execs axed flash builder instead of adapting it to js runtime, it was a crime against humanity that set us back to 1000s

Betrayals and Affairs ..

After trying development with vanilla js, then with the help of jQuery, then AngularJS, then Angular, then Vuejs, then React,

I spent the last 3-4 years of my life loving React and devoting all my frontend projects to React. React was so simple and straightforward and I ... I committed to it

but, I recently checked out Svelte, and maybe i shouldn't have let curiosity take the better of me but i did and, im heartbroken to say, I can no longer love react the same way. as nice as react was, like in any relationship, we had some ups and downs, i got bothered by some little details that i learned to live with, but Svelte .. Svelte solved these little twirks and it just felt even simpler...

I created a new Vite project today, and it asked me what framework to initialize, and i kept hopping between React and Svelte. for 10 minutes i was thinking of all the history i shared with React, of how scary it is to commit to something new, but i clicked on Svelte.

I know i may have betrayed a commitment to React, but sometimes things pile up and i .. I had to listen to my heart

Forgive me and thank you for reading my confession

I did not start with Vue yet, but I am already quite tempted to cheat with Svelte.

So hard to choose between them.

The only thing that I think works great in Node.js ecosystem is Socket.io

Otherwise anything JavaScript related is too bad for me. So many frameworks releasing each month. First it was React then people said that vue is better... Now hearing Svelte is the best. This shit is going crazy.

Personally I prefer to keep back end in a different language such as PHP or Python. Separation of concerns was a thing some years ago now everything is JS.

Are there other alternatives to Socket.io in other languages which are easy to setup just like Socket.io? XMPP is there but I feel it is overly complicated to get started.

I don't know what to think of Vue 3 Composition API anymore. At first I hated it because it's nothing but one big ole rip off of React, and I hate React so much; its hook system is the most disgusting anti-pattern I've ever seen in the entire JS ecosystem. This gave me the incentive to try out Svelte instead, but after doing so, I look back at Vue 3 and noticed that they're kinda similar... why are so many JS devs allergic to classes? You can have much better written code that way. Idk, I'm waiting for vue-class-component and vue-property-decorator to fully migrate. In the mean time, if I'm gonna be forced to write composition based code, I might as well use Svelte.

For my peeps in the RoR arena, did y'all ever felt the need to change from ERB as yout server side rendering engine of choice?

I find it hard to use anything else, i would normally stick to it unless I was using Rails as an API and leave the frontend to React or Vue.

Asking about y'alls opinion because I knew about HAML from a while back. But never really used it and I find Rails with ERB to be really efficient.

Ruby pagebuilding with ERB is really flipping comfortable man.ERB has been my favorite for years.

Currently migrating a project to use Svelte and wanted to see what some of y'all think about Haml or erb. Just for the sake of curiosity. Don't know how many rails users we have in here.

Unironically, Fireship's "React for the Haters in 100 Seconds" is a treat.

Why the fuck nobody talks about Multi-page apps?! We went from a Web where everything was Multi-page server-rendered, and now everything for Web developers is "Single-page apps".

What about websites who can't do that? Not everything can be a single-page app. Only my uncle's restaurant website, or something which is TRULY a full app. No half choices.
If your website is a multi-page app/portal which actually PRELOADS data, instead of doing 100 fetch to an API within a page that is full of loading bars, well, your life is a pain.
When you want a first contentful paint which isn't a white page, well, your life is a pain.
What are React, Vue, Ember, Angular (let's exclude Svelte and Marko) going to do about Multi-page apps and SSR?

React-router sucks to me. It's performance is weak and it's useful only when you have an SPA with multiple sections which can be treated as pages (e.g. A single SPA divided in tabs).
Server-side rendering is the worst pain ever made by humanity, in React (and prob Vue, I didn't try but I can bet). And even when made easier from libs like Svelte and Marko, I (personally) can't get it to be faster enough compared to a traditional website without a JS framework and with a templating engine.
Anyways, if there's anything that I learnt from React, is to stay away from Next.js. Perfect, beautiful, mess.

All JS frameworks just seem to bloat the code and make it worse and slower, even though they're REALLY helpful.

Why? Why everyone loves them if their downsides are so clear? Why 3 projects out of 3 I made (1 React SSR, 1 Vue, 1 Marko SSR) are and will stay painfully slow and bloated, full of shit, even if in 2020 we should have evolved with the famous three shaking, with the famous lazy loading, etc.?

I am just frustrated.
And let's not even talk about Webpack, Rollup, Lasso, those module bundlers shit which are harder to configure and understand than finding a needle in a haystack.
Lasso was the easiest to configure but I anyways can't understand it. Webpack seems it was made to handle SPAs, as any tool in this freaking world, and not even considering an easy way to integrate multiple bundles for multiple pages (I know it's pretty easy, but with component sharing between pages and big unique bundles Next.js handles it soooo bad it feels like hell).

Am I the only one?

Sorry for the long rant. I just needed to rant right now.

I tested Svelte recently and to be honest, it makes me think that React is just crap.

> use angular

Keep seeing videos and posts about people shitting on angular for reasons unknown to me and recommending react

> switch to react

Keep seeing videos and posts about people shitting on react for reasons unknown to me and recommending vite

> switch to vite

Keep seeing videos and posts about people shitting on vite for reasons unknown to me and recommending nextjs

> switch to nextjs

Keep seeing videos and posts about people shitting on nextjs for reasons unknown to me and recommending svelte

Are you devs fucking acoustic?

Ok, I'm actually raging at vuejs right now, and this is coming from my second year using it.

the fucking shit is weird.
functional components cannot use v-model.
functional components also cannot reference other components via components property, that child component needs either to be global or be injected (an ugly hack).

v-model behaves differently on checkboxes. checkboxes are fucking shit on vue. things update or do not update.

functional components with checkboxes? hahahahahaha.

vue 3 is taking an ungodly shitload of fucking amount of time.

fuck react, but im actually considering giving vue the middle finger as well.

started this product migration 2 months ago and regretting it, looking at svelte with curious eyes.

I’m sooo excited when any new frontend JS framework is available. Angular, React, more recently Vue, Svelte. Bring ‘em on. I wanna try them all.

Just kidding…
As long as the tools at hand allow me to get the job done, keep clients and end users happy, I don’t give a fuck.
This meme is actually the epitome of what I hate with a lot of web developers I’ve encountered

Has anyone tried Svelte.dev / Sapper?
I think it looks quite nice.

If you haven't tried Svelte yet, then try it. (not sponsored, I love Svelte <3)

Built a Svelte app year ago and it's broken today.

This is not the case with Windows. You can still run a app built on 1999 today.

Opened an issue on their repo requesting that they should add backwards compatibility.

No later than 5 seconds. It got closed and locked with this comment,

"Welcome to development when you don't write your entire stack yourself by hand.

Please open helpful bug reports or don't open any at all."

This is what every FOSS project got as defense. They think since they work for free, they can do what the fuck they want.

The defense is false because they put their OSS project on their resume and in return they get hired for full time work or consulting.

I fucking sue you Svelte if I had money to hire expensive lawyers. This time you are just lucky.

Working on someone else’s React project is a nightmare especially when they don’t know how to write good JSX code ( which most people don’t )

I honestly am looking forward to when Svelte takes over the frontend world

I have a few side project ideas. I started one of them a few months ago (project setup, dependencies, git repo, index page, very basic API and client functionality). But I cannot get myself to work on it or even think about it (for months now). The reason? I do not want to work on the client/frontend! I do not want to deal with React or Vue or Svelte or fuckjs or even jquery. It's a fucking mess.

For the backend, the requests are stateless: you get a request, handle it, and respond back. Need to update state? Database. That's it!
For the frontend, there's just tooo many states I can't keep up with! When the user checks or unchecks this checkbox, I need to maintain the state of the checkbox and maintain the all effects of changing the checkbox while syncing with the backend and making sure the elements are still styled correctly with the applied effects. Multiply that with all the expected interactive elements on the page. It's exhausting!

Checking out Meteor JS in 2020 after a loooong time in which I ignored it. I participated in the community when it barely startted, liked a couple of things, was effy about some others.

Built a semi large app (custom user auth through ldap, multiple forms and data fetches on different components inside of each page, reporting bla bla bla.

Did it first in just Meteor and Blaze (pretty easy to digest) and then with Meteor and Svelte (still easy to digest, but Blaze was simpler imho) and both packages totalled less than 100mb which is somewhat amazing considering how node is with packages.It might be a good time to psy attention once more to meteor.

I based much of my shit in the now free Discover Meteor book, there aren't that many breaking changes, which makes it surprisingly stable as an application for development.

I don't know if i would use it for s large scale app, but thus far it seems fairly promising as compared to how it was years ago.

Definitely something to keep in mind for 2020-21 development

I find goals for developers to be pure busy work and almost impossible set meaningful ones.

You can't set ticket based goals, because one ticket may take a week or an hour. You can't really set learning goals, because how do you measure 'learning Svelte'? And if that was your goal, what'd be the point of the outcome?

You can set goals like, ensure all tickets have at least one unit test... but then you get tickets that need to get out yesterday and you get people knocking on your door while you're trying to create meaningful tests.

But we often have a meeting to teach everyone how to set goals, then we have to sit and invent goals that satisfy someone in the org, then twist our usual daily work into some BS about how we're working towards the goals in 1:1s and then the whole thing is forgotten by H2, if not sooner. Just to be resurrected in Jan/Feb of next year.

IMHO Rich Harris (of the Rollup and Svelte fame) is a rock star. I think I'd rant less of more people would follow his methods.

So today I thought I’ll try svelte. It was an horrible experience if I compare it to stencil.

I have to install four extensions just to make the file format working properly.

Half of the intellisense is wrong or just slow.

The formatter is not integrated as an vs-code formatter, therefor it can’t format on save automatically.

The source maps do indeed work, but is quite wonky at times. Typescript source code is shown as-is with types, which breaks chrome’s syntax highlighter.

Personally, I dislike template languages simply because I always have to look at the docs for the correct usage, just let me use the stuff I know from JavaScript!

I could also rant about a few small things like the on:something syntax, but eh, that’s it for now. I don’t think I’ll understand why so many like it.

Did anyone here use sapper and svelte to build a production application? How was the experience overall?

I've been reading about it and watched Rich Harris present svelte and sapper, I like his approach but I'm not too sure about how it work in a production workflow

I'll put it this way. Svelte is like Kotlin. It's modern, elegant and a pleasure to work with.
React is like Java. Old, bloated and a pain to work with.
Svelte makes React look like it was built by masochists.

I don't work on frontend often, mostly because I despise the frameworks.
Svelte is a breath of fresh air.
I just want to ship a product quickly and it doesn't get in the way.

Reactjs, angular, svelte or Vue which one should I go in future?

....death to React

Long Live Svelte!

My freelancing journey so far:

In Jan, I continued working for an Indian client I got back in November last year. A Shopify app built with Laravel/MySQL stack.

In Feb, I got three more clients. One, who's from Bulgaria, wants a Shopify app built with Laravel/MySQL
The second one, who's from the UK, wants me to convert their Yii2 application to Laravel.
The third one, also a UK client, wants me to integrate a fulfillment center to their Shopify store.

This month, I continued working for the above clients and now the Bulgarian client wants me to work on a Typescript + Svelte application. I'm really excited for it.

So yeah.. Just wanted to share it. I'm not making a point or any joke or something.

So react is even outperformed by angular these days.. is there a new trend to follow or are we ignoring this just like we ignored es6 and kept using jquery?

A year ago I built my first todo, not from a tutorial, but using basic libraries and nw.js, and doing basic dom manipulations.

It had drag n drop, icons, and basic saving and loading. And I was satisfied.

Since then I've been working odd jobs.

And today I've decided to stretch out a bit, and build a basic airtable clone, because I think I can.
And also because I hate anything without an offline option.

First thing I realized was I wasn't about to duplicate all the features of a spreadsheet from scratch. I'd need a base to work from.

I spent about an hour looking.
Core features needed would be trivial serialization or saving/loading.

Proper event support for when a cell, row, or column changed, or was selected. Necessary for triggering validation and serialization/saving.

Custom column types.

Embedding html in cells.

Reorderable columns

Optional but nice to have:

Changeable column width and row height.

Drag and drop on rows and columns.

Right click menu support out of the box.

After that hour I had a few I wanted to test.

And started looking at frameworks to support the SPA aspects.

Both mithril and riot have minimal router support. But theres also a ton of other leightweight frameworks and libraries worthy of prototyping in, solid, marko, svelte, etc.
I didn't want to futz with lots of overhead, babeling/gulping/grunting/webpacking or any complex configuration-over-convention.

Didn't care for dom vs shadow dom. Its a prototype not a startup.

And I didn't care to do it the "right way". Learning curve here was antithesis to experimenting. I was trying to get away from plugin, configuration-over-convention, astronaut architecture, monolithic frameworks, the works.

Could I import the library without five dozen dependancies and learning four different tools before getting to hello world?
"But if you know IJK then its quick to get started!", except I don't, so it won't. I didn't want that.

Could I get cheap component-oriented designs?

Was I managing complex state embedded in a monolith that took over the entire layout and conventions of my code, like the world balanced on the back of a turtle?

Did it obscure the dom and state, and the standard way of doing things or *compliment* those?

As for validation, theres a number of vanilla libraries, one of which treats validation similar to unit testing, which seems kinda novel.

For presentation and backend I could do NW.JS, which would remove some of the complications, by putting everything in one script. Or if I wanted to make it a web backend, and avoid writing it in something that ran like a potato strapped to a nuclear rocket (visual studio), I could skip TS and go with python and quart, an async variation of flask.
This has the advantage that using something thats *not* JS, namely python, for interacting with a proper database, and would allow self-hosting or putting it online so people can share data and access in real time with others.

And because I'm horrible, and do things the wrong way for convenience, I could use tailwind.
Because it pisses people off.

How easy (or hard) would it be to recreate a basic functional clone of the core of airtable?

I don't know, but I have feeling I'm going to find out!

How many kilobytes of resources (CSS, JS) do you deem acceptable? I need to know how much I should optimize.

And no, I will not use no JS. Don't suggest that. Svelte is needed.

I mainly using react/svelte + node on making web projects, but I wanted to learn new things outside JS environment. Should I learn RoR(Ruby) or Phoenix(Elixir)?

P.S. I will learn the language first before jumped into the framework

If someone tries to convince someone else to try X framework, should they be called X missionary?
(asking for a friend)

What exactly is the essence of web frameworks introducing new syntax? Does it mean language can't be augmented without turning the syntax upside down? All js frameworks are guilty (think svelte is the exception). Php, eloquent accessors, laravel facades etc.

Then, in addition to learning their available methods, classes, folder structure and possibilities, etc, you have to grapple with silly syntaxes. Sad

What's your take on Symfony? My dad is making a project in Symfony but he asked me if the current stack I'm using is better (Rust + Sapper/Svelte). I said Symfony is fine (I have very limited experience in it) but I want to give a more useful response to him. Do big projects inevitably turn into a mess in Symfony? Is it enjoyable to work with? I want to recommend him something actually good and not just give him my biased opinion that my stack is better just because I like it more.

Once a React aficionado, twice the frustration we endure,
In the realm of libraries, React's problems seem impure.
With Svelte's elegance and grace in our sight,
Let's vent about React, as day turns into night.

Boilerplate Overload, a monotonous affair,
Classes, constructors, lifecycle steps we declare.
In Svelte's simplicity, we find a breath of fresh air,
Just markup and magic – a coder's love affair.

Complex State Management, React's Achilles' heel,
Redux, Mobx, and their massive code appeal.
Svelte's state handling is a cinch, for real,
No more tangled webs of logic to conceal.

Unnecessary Re-Renders, React's performance woe,
Countless updates, like a never-ending show.
Svelte updates what's needed, like a pro,
Efficiency and speed, in its radiant glow.

Verbose Syntax, JSX's verbosity on display,
HTML in JavaScript, causing dismay.
Svelte's concise template syntax lights our way,
No more endless tags, just code that's here to stay.

Lack of Truly Reactive Behavior, React's hurdle high,
Hooks to wrangle, state to satisfy.
Svelte's reactivity, no need to question why,
It just works, oh my, oh my.

Ecosystem Complexity, React's sprawling sprawl,
Choices galore, making us bawl.
In Svelte's world, simplicity is the call,
A coherent ecosystem, it has it all.

Learning Curve, React's mountain to climb,
Classes, hooks, context, a hill of time.
Svelte's gentle curve feels sublime,
A smoother path to code, so fine.

Tooling Overkill, React's complex array,
Build tools, linters, configs in disarray.
Svelte's streamlined setup leads the way,
No more intergalactic code buffet.

Debugging Headaches, React's mysterious realm,
Complex state, intricate components overwhelm.
Svelte's predictable model, a soothing helm,
Debugging becomes a peaceful realm.

In the end, React, a complex labyrinth we explore,
Svelte's elegance and simplicity we adore.
If only React could learn, its problems to deplore,
A brighter future, for React we'd implore.

Svelte Bootstrap with Material Design

What new tech/framework/library are you most excited about?

I recently found out about Svelte/Sapper, and I've been having a blast with it. It feels like mini-react, but just as powerful - with a few convenience features that I actually wish react had itself. Also their docs page is amazing. I wish all docs were this good.

React or Svelte or WebAssembly?

I just deploy a simple Svelte app using Vercel today. It is pretty easy.

Why do people shit on nextjs and glorify svelte what the fuck is svelte now

Sveltejs question: Sapper, or Routify?

Coming from a PHP, JS and Flutter developer:

I want to start building more websites entirely with Js frameworks. The less the better. Needs to import json data, perform ajax requests etc.

Can't decide, do I learn Vue or Svelte?

Svelte is great, and React is the worst thing to happen to JavaScript.

I mean, seriously, just to make one app you have to have this massive React project, as well as a runtime. Svelte compiles it into a small bundle that's not too large with *no runtime*!

React, Bootstrap and Express have spawned a new wave of "Braindead JavaScript Developers™" that are beginning to become inescapable; it sucks.

Sveltekit's progressive enhancement on forms is an obstacle more than a tool.

Submit buttons stop working when they want.
Other buttons in the forms may trigger an action via POST if their type is not defined.

Everything with no feedback whatsoever. At least tell me I'm an idiot in the form or let me know why a button type="submit" does nothing to send the form data 🤦

I was thinking about making a PWA website for devRant. It's really only an excuse to play more with some frameworks.
Of course I will make this project open-source so everyone can contribute ;)

What will you choose for this and why?
* Vue
* Svelte
* Marko
* Hyperapp
* maybe even Choo

super.so is annoyingly expensive

am I crazy if I want to integrate Notion with a custom site solution built with SvelteKit?

Any Flutter devs? I'm a new dev on this platform and going to release native a native app for iOS _and_ Android.

I'm kinda getting frustrated. It's a great concept (one codebase, multiple platforms, etc) but I didn't realize I have to watch out for changes in my java and/or, swift changes that might break my build. (ex. A dependency that's deprecated, requiring a newer java/jre only to break something else).

Should I scrap Flutter and learn something else?

Also, it's just a one-time build. Once I'm done, I'm planning to switch to PWA, maybe React or Svelte.

Sveltekit progressive enhancement form docs fucking suck.

Arbitrary, non-reproducible examples.

The docs show: return fail(400, { email, missing: true });

The client response says: {
"type": "success",
"status": 204
}

Man, if the docs were monkey-typewritten, they could have warned us first…