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Languages without a fully implemented type system.
Granted, it has been a fad for a quarter century, but everything points at one simple fact: Types matter in programming.
In dynamic languages, you tend to see that testing suites explode into thousands of tests, many of which wouldn't even be necessary if you had some type safety.
You see that languages like JS are forked into more typesafe dialects, like Typescript. Python got typehints since 3.6, and PHP added typehints for methods, then typehints for properties, and will soon even have compound types.
Maybe most languages will never reach the level of Haskell or Scala, and that's totally fine, but I think the direction languages are moving in is pretty much set in stone: No ambiguity, more safety. Code should fail before deploying, not after.36 -
My first testing job in the industry. Quite the rollercoaster.
I had found this neat little online service with a community. I signed up an account and participated. I sent in a lot of bug reports. One of the community supervisors sent me a message that most things in FogBugz had my username all over it.
After a year, I got cocky and decided to try SQL injection. In a production environment. What can I say. I was young, not bright, and overly curious. Never malicious, never damaged data or exposed sensitive data or bork services.
I reported it.
Not long after, I got phone calls. I was pretty sure I was getting charged with something.
I was offered a job.
Three months into the job, they asked if I wanted to do Python and work with the automators. I said I don't know what that is but sure.
They hired me a private instructor for a week to learn the basics, then flew me to the other side of the world for two weeks to work directly with the automation team to learn how they do it.
It was a pretty exciting era in my life and my dream job.4 -
Many have python learning as their 2018 goal, well theres a 15$ huge humble bundle for python machine learning, networking, rest, pen-testing and more, its a good deal, check it out.
46 -
Let the student use their own laptops. Even buy them one instead of having computers on site that no one uses for coding but only for some multiple choice tests and to browse Facebook.
Teach them 10 finger typing. (Don't be too strict and allow for personal preferences.)
Teach them text navigation and editing shortcuts. They should be able to scroll per page, jump to the beginning or end of the line or jump word by word. (I am not talking vi bindings or emacs magic.) And no, key repeat is an antifeature.
Teach them VCS before their first group assignment. Let's be honest, VCS means git nowadays. Yet teach them git != GitHub.
Teach git through the command line. They are allowed to use a gui once they aren't afraid to resolve a merge conflict or to rebase their feature branch against master. Just committing and pushing is not enough.
Teach them test-driven development ASAP. You can even give them assignments with a codebase of failing tests and their job is to make them pass in the beginning. Later require them to write tests themselves.
Don't teach the language, teach concepts. (No, if else and for loops aren't concepts you god-damn amateur! That's just syntax!)
When teaching object oriented programming, I'd smack you if do inane examples with vehicles, cars, bikes and a Mercedes Benz. Or animal, cat and dog for that matter. (I came from a self-taught imperative background. Those examples obfuscate more than they help.) Also, inheritance is overrated in oop teachings.
Functional programming concepts should be taught earlier as its concepts of avoiding side effects and pure functions can benefit even oop code bases. (Also great way to introduce testing, as pure functions take certain inputs and produce one output.)
Focus on one language in the beginning, it need not be Java, but don't confuse students with Java, Python and Ruby in their first year. (Bonus point if the language supports both oop and functional programming.)
And for the love of gawd: let them have a strictly typed language. Why would you teach with JavaScript!?
Use industry standards. Notepad, atom and eclipse might be open source and free; yet JetBrains community editions still best them.
For grades, don't your dare demand for them to write code on paper. (Pseudocode is fine.)
Don't let your students play compiler in their heads. It's not their job to know exactly what exception will be thrown by your contrived example. That's the compilers job to complain about. Rather teach them how to find solutions to these errors.
Teach them advanced google searches.
Teach them how to write a issue for a library on GitHub and similar sites.
Teach them how to ask a good stackoverflow question :>6 -
Python: I hate the way it uses True/False over true/false
Java: Static. Just fuck static. oh and System.out.println(), why the fuck did they make the basic print function so long to write.
C#: I despise the way the curly braces get automatically put under the function declaration rather than beside it since it's a language style thing.
C: the inability to declare vars in altho declaration of a forloop. Although I think C11 let's you do this.
Javascript: Fucking prototypes.
Coldfusion: it runs like an elephant. Slow and heavy.
Go: The way the compiler won't let you have unused variables/imports. Pain in the ass for testing.17 -
Lead dev: Hey boss, you really do like Python right?
Me: No
Lead dev: Well it's cuz I was think....wait what? WTF do you mean no, you have automated a fuckload of BS with Python and we are still using it, why tf would you use Python if you don't like it?
Me: I like it enough for the automation scripts that we have and for parsing documents or generating glue scripts, its already installed in every server that we have, so testing bs in dev and then using them in prod is cake, it doesn't mean I LOVE python, I like it for what we use it.
Lead dev: Well ain't already bash and perl installed as well?
Me: Do you know bash and or perl?
Lead dev: No, don't you?....
Me: No......
L Dev: (using a Jim Carrey impersonation) WELLL ALLRIGTHY THEN! What is the other language that you used for X project?
Me: Clojure, do you remember that one?
* he said paren paren paren paren yes paren i space paren do close paren close paren etc etc
L Dev: (((((((yes (i (do)))))))) and nevermind, I'll get back to working more with Python
Me: das what I fucking thought esse6 -
Dynamically typed languages are barbaric to me.
It's pretty much universally understood that programmers program with types in mind (if you have a method that takes a name, it's a string. You don't want a name that's an integer).
Even it you don't like the verbosity of type annotations, that's fine. It adds maybe seconds of time to type, which is neglible in my opinion, but it's a discussion to be had.
If that's the case, use Crystal. It's statically typed, and no type annotations are required (it looks nearly identical to Ruby).
So many errors are fixed by static typing and compilers. I know a person who migrated most of the Python std library to Haskell and found typing errors in it. *In their standard library*. If the developers of Python can't be trusted to avoid simple typing errors with all their unit tests, how can anyone?
Plus, even if unit testing universally guarded against typing errors, why would you prefer that? It takes far less time to add a type annotation (and even less time to write nothing in Crystal), and you get the benefit of knowing types at compile time.
I've had some super weird type experiences in Ruby. You can mock out the return of the type check to be what you want. I've been unit testing in Ruby before, tried mocking a method on a type, didn't work as I expected. Checked the type, it lines up.
Turns out, nested away in some obscure place was a factory that was generating types and masking them as different types because we figured "since it responds to all the same methods, it's practically the same type right?", but not in the unit test. Took 45 minutes on my time when it could've taken ~0 seconds in a statically typed language.11 -
FYI to anyone following the Krack WPA2 vulnerability
A testing suite in python has made its way to github.
https://github.com/vanhoefm/...1 -
So here's the deal. I am a team lead of a small company and I have a junior who is an idiot. I mean literally, idiot. We code in Python mostly and as Python is not structured as a default Java or C# project, the developer needs to be very careful so that the structure (or tiers) is maintained properly.
Now this girl, always messes up the tiers. Say one enhancement can be easily implemented in the UI tier, she would do the implementation in the core Db access layer, which may complete this particular enhancement, but breaks all the other functions (sometimes the whole project) connected to that particular module of the Db layer. She doesn't do any integration testing after updating the code, she only checks the current enhancement she is working on. When the enhancement goes to the testing phase, the testers find those broken functions and that results a re-work (most of the times done by me).
I have warned her. Even our manager has warned her. She always tells that she is working to improve herself. But I know, she isn't. She mostly chats with her boyfriends (yes, with an 's') when she has no work to do. She never upgrades herself or works on her skills.
I can easily report about her, and they will fire her without any warning (they did it already with a guy earlier). I don't want to do that again. What should I do? Any suggestions?
Oh, she has a great ego. She thinks that knows and understands everything. She will listen to your suggestions carefully, but will never follow those.11 -
Why do people jump from c to python quickly. And all are about machine learning. Free days back my cousin asked me for books to learn python.
Trust me you have to learn c before python. People struggle going from python to c. But no ml, scripting,
And most importantly software engineering wtf?
Software engineering is how to run projects and it is compulsory to learn python and no mention of got it any other vcs, wtf?
What the hell is that type of college. Trust me I am no way saying python is weak, but for learning purpose the depth of language and concepts like pass by reference, memory leaks, pointers.
And learning algorithms, data structures, is more important than machine learning, trust me if you cannot model the data, get proper training data, testing data then you will get screewed up outputs. And then again every one who hype these kinds of stuff also think that ml with 100% accuracy is greater than 90% and overfit the data, test the model on training data. And mostly the will learn in college will be by hearting few formulas, that's it.
Learn a language (concepts in language) like then you will most languages are easy.
Cool cs programmer are born today😖
31 -
> be me
> work on a nice project with friends: A, B and C
> joined in a bit later, but before any real progress was made + we scrap the existing code, because it was Python2 or something
> decide on a framework
> A wants to create one himself, instead of using an existing one
> we fight for a little, but let A do his thing
> 2 months later
> been waiting the whole time
> +1000 lines on github, but still not finished
> "Wouldn't it be better if we would use the normal framework?"
> "No, mine is hand-crafted for that task"
> "But it is full of bugs"
> "If you find one major bug, we'll ditch my framework"
> finds major bug
> "That's fixed, just give me a min-"
> finds another bug
> "Thats just because you don't know how to use the framework"
- Documentation inside ONE gigantic README
- Library is missing the core features we needed/those which are implemented don't work
- Both B and C were on my side from the beginning (in that we should use "Already Existing Fully Documented Popular And tested Framework Which Does Everything We Need")
> "But i dont understand this framework so explain it to me"
> send him a few code examples + a tutorial??? (dont remember if i actually sent im the tutorial before i left)
> "explain it to me, i can't understand it"
> I CANT UNDERSTAND YOUR FUCKING FRAMEWORK DUMBASS
> ragequitted the server+project
To this day i still don't know, which framework they are using..
Also that Python 2 code in the beginning was because A didnt know the difference and copied (yes by hand) the code from atom to github without testing anything.4 -
Oh god, I'm rewriting an old Python script we use at work and I had a look at the original tests for inspiration... There are 600 lines of "passes", #TODOs, assertions that can never fail, and tests of imported packages. Basically none of it is testing the actual script 🙃3
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36.63% of the respondents said they’re not planning to use any new programming languages in the coming 12 months.
But, 18.15% of them said they’re planning to use Python, while 16.83% said they’re planning to use Go, followed by JavaScript with 16.17%.
What about the tools?
Honestly, this was the hardest part of the report since it required very thorough data cleaning, and it turns out developer teams use a wide variety of tools, especially when it comes to testing and project management.
24 -
Two big moments today:
1. Holy hell, how did I ever get on without a proper debugger? Was debugging some old code by eye (following along and keeping track mentally, of what the variables should be and what each step did). That didn't work because the code isn't intuitive. Tried the print() method, old reliable as it were. Kinda worked but didn't give me enough fine-grain control.
Bit the bullet and installed Wing IDE for python. And bam, it hit me. How did I ever live without step-through, and breakpoints before now?
2. Remember that non-sieve prime generator I wrote a while back? (well maybe some of you do). The one that generated quasi lucas carmichael (QLC) numbers? Well thats what I managed to debug. I figured out why it wasn't working. Last time I released it, I included two core methods, genprimes() and nextPrime(). The first generates a list of primes accurately, up to some n, and only needs a small handful of QLC numbers filtered out after the fact (because the set of primes generated and the set of QLC numbers overlap. Well I think they call it an embedding, as in QLC is included in the series generated by genprimes, but not the converse, but I digress).
nextPrime() was supposed to take any arbitrary n above zero, and accurately return the nearest prime number above the argument. But for some reason when it started, it would return 2,3,5,6...but genprimes() would work fine for some reason.
So genprimes loops over an index, i, and tests it for primality. It begins by entering the loop, and doing "result = gffi(i)".
This calls into something a function that runs four tests on the argument passed to it. I won't go into detail here about what those are because I don't even remember how I came up with them (I'll make a separate post when the code is fully fixed).
If the number fails any of these tests then gffi would just return the value of i that was passed to it, unaltered. Otherwise, if it did pass all of them, it would return i+1.
And once back in genPrimes() we would check if the variable 'result' was greater than the loop index. And if it was, then it was either prime (comparatively plentiful) or a QLC number (comparatively rare)--these two types and no others.
nextPrime() was only taking n, and didn't have this index to compare to, so the prior steps in genprimes were acting as a filter that nextPrime() didn't have, while internally gffi() was returning not only primes, and QLCs, but also plenty of composite numbers.
Now *why* that last step in genPrimes() was filtering out all the composites, idk.
But now that I understand whats going on I can fix it and hypothetically it should be possible to enter a positive n of any size, and without additional primality checks (such as is done with sieves, where you have to check off multiples of n), get the nearest prime numbers. Of course I'm not familiar enough with prime number generation to know if thats an achievement or worthwhile mentioning, so if anyone *is* familiar, and how something like that holds up compared to other linear generators (O(n)?), I'd be interested to hear about it.
I also am working on filtering out the intersection of the sets (QLC numbers), which I'm pretty sure I figured out how to incorporate into the prime generator itself.
I also think it may be possible to generator primes even faster, using the carmichael numbers or related set--or even derive a function that maps one set of upper-and-lower bounds around a semiprime, and map those same bounds to carmichael numbers that act as the upper and lower bound numbers on the factors of a semiprime.
Meanwhile I'm also looking into testing the prime generator on a larger set of numbers (to make sure it doesn't fail at large values of n) and so I'm looking for more computing power if anyone has it on hand, or is willing to test it at sufficiently large bit lengths (512, 1024, etc).
Lastly, the earlier work I posted (linked below), I realized could be applied with ECM to greatly reduce the smallest factor of a large number.
If ECM, being one of the best methods available, only handles 50-60 digit numbers, & your factors are 70+ digits, then being able to transform your semiprime product into another product tree thats non-semiprime, with factors that ARE in range of ECM, and which *does* contain either of the original factors, means products that *were not* formally factorable by ECM, *could* be now.
That wouldn't have been possible though withput enormous help from many others such as hitko who took the time to explain the solution was a form of modular exponentiation, Fast-Nop who contributed on other threads, Voxera who did as well, and support from Scor in particular, and many others.
Thank you all. And more to come.
Links mentioned (because DR wouldn't accept them as they were):
https://pastebin.com/MWechZj912 -
I just got my Python project working on my new work PC!!! It took all morning 😂😂😂😂😂
I had to basically hack my company so I could do my job.
More specifically, I had to install a proxy server so Python, and other CLI tools, could access the internet via our company's NTLM/web proxy server.... After some IT morons reconfigured it... without testing or providing us a way to continue using it...1 -
So here I am testing some python code and writing to a file. No big deal. But damn is it taking a long time to get data back from this API. Ah it's fine I'll let it work in the background.
40 minutes later.
Oh! The requests timed out. No big deal. I'll just cut out the parts that are already done.
1st request in.
I wonder what the file is looking like.
Only showing 1 request.
waitaminute.jpeg
I should have more than that.
*Suddenly realizes that I was writing to the file and not appending.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
2 -
tl;dr - install ‘Pop!_os’ and try it out if you haven’t yet, it’s pretty damn good!
Heavy Micro$haft user here, have tried using ubuntu a bunch of times in the past and fucking regretted it every time. Ran into issues with stupid shit like the apt cache growing exponentially until the drive was full, or something like the the system python getting borked.
To be fair, I’m 120% certain my dumb-assery is what caused the problems. I’m definitely not trying to blame the OS. But my experience was shitty, even if it was at my own hands lol.
Started playing around with Pop!_os from the system76 team. And I’m seriously in freakin’ love with this OS. It’s clean, is performant, feels way less buggy or just feels more stable somehow. I know it’s based on ubuntu, but I’ve had a great time thus far using it. I’ve got ansible, docker, aws toolkit, aws cli, sam-cli, vscode, dynamodb-local, serverless, npm, brew, and working on steam now.
Everything has been a breeze and again the system feels really fast and snappy. It feels a lot like mac on the smoothness scale, but snappy like a windows box with beefy hardware specs.
I’m still just in the testing phase on a VM, but I’m seriously thinking about blowing away my windows install for Pop!_os.
(I’ll try arch someday when I’m up for some hardcore masochism)8 -
Fuck the managers !! Fucking Fuck Fuck !!!
I am in manual testing for 3 years. Wanted to move in to automation since 2016 January !
They kept delaying.
While waiting I kept autating stuffs and making utilities to use for everyone.
Recently automated a 5 yr old manual process.
Made an utility that can perform a 5 hours manual activity in 5 mins.
Our automation team had a vacancy.
The managers were asked to nominate names who could fill the spot from the current manual team.
They didn't suggested my name.
I am not bragging but I am the only person in the team who nows Selenium , UFT , Java , Python even though being in the manual testers.
The team is going to hire someone from the outside.
I just got to know it all this today.
These bastards should die in hell !!!!
I hate these bastards !!!!6 -
Fucking hate Qt.
Spent all morning trying to figure out how their bullshit QThreadPool works with their bullshit QRunnable but after a bunch of bullshit asynchronous testing I figured that my thread object was being collected and deleted before I was done with it, for no reason. Now if the race condition was documented... This wouldn't be an issue. But every google search brought up nada. Eventually I resorted to turning off autoDelete on the runnable, but then I just have a memory leak, obviously.
I couldn't find a way to manually clean up a QRunnable in Python. What the fuck.
I just went back to good old fashioned QThreads... This is why I quit Qt in the first place.18 -
Oh, gather 'round fellow wizards of the code realm! 🧙✨ Let me regale you with the epic tale of software sorcery and the comical misadventures that come with it! 🤪🎉
So there we are, facing the dreaded Internet Explorer dragon 🐉 - an ancient, stubborn beast from the era of dial-up connections and clipart-laden websites. It breathes fire on our carefully crafted layouts, turning them into a pixelated disaster! 🔥😱
And then, the grand quest of cross-browser testing begins! 🚀🌍 One moment, your website is a shining knight in Chrome's armor, and the next, it's a jester in Safari's court. A circus of compatibility struggles! 🎪🤹
CSS, the arcane art of cascading style sheets, is our magic wand. But oh, the incantations can be treacherous! A slight misstep and your buttons start disco dancing, and your text transforms into a microscopic mystery! 🕺👀
But fear not, brave developers! We wield the enchanted sword of Stack Overflow and the shield of Git version control. We shall slay bugs and refactor with valor! ⚔️🐞
In this enchanted land, documentation is the mystical parchment, often written in the cryptic dialect of ancient monks. "This function doeth stuff, thou knoweth what I meaneth." 📜😅
And meetings, oh the meetings! 🗣️🤯 It's like a conference of babbling brooks in the forest of Jargon. "Let us discuss the velocity of the backlog!" 🌿🐇
But amidst the chaos, we code on! Armed with our emojis and a bubbling cauldron of coffee, we persist. For we are the wizards and witches of the digital age, conjuring spells in Python and brewing potions in Java. 🐍☕
Onward, magical beings of code! 🚀 May your bugs be few, and your merges conflict-free! 🙌🎩3 -
So I decided today was a good day to manually compile python 3.6 for my raspberry pi as it hasn't yet been added to any supported repo's. Site says: this will take approximately 30 minutes.
3 hours later: "starting unit testing"2 -
Is it weird that I'm excited to get to test my code for my side project that I'm working on? It feels like I should hate this since I'm going to graduate next year and my career will be doing this as a job. Really, though, I'm glad to make sure my code is designed properly. It gives me confidence in my programming skills. BTW, if anyone is trying to use a build tool in Python there are NO guides to get started that I've seen! I had to go through trial and error to get pybuilder running!2
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That shitty moment when you are reverse engineering an app (LINE), but can't find any useful hints.
Web analysis didn't help. Decompiling the windows executable also didn't help. Testing the app on different behaviour with python scripts didn't help. Analysing the android app on windows with the jadx decompiler and other decompiler didn't help that much.
BUT today it worked. I did use a paid "Dex dump" android application. I found some methods that the app receives from the servers with a thrift protocol.
Now I just need to find the right parameters to be finally able to make a bot. Hehehe.
That was a hard way, but it paid out. I did learn so many things. It took me like a whole year.
5 -
Somehow, a contractor left with all our unit tests six months ago. I just inherited this project. It's 200kloc of Django spaghetti, and I have no unit tests.5
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$ python
>>> class Object:
>>> pass
>>> self = Object()
>>> self.attr = val...
>>> * copy paste code from some class
<Ctrl>+d
Testing ☑️ -
So I'm still new to programming. Mind blown every day learning python. Although self learning does get confusing sometimes. Somehow I'm learning pen testing now and already installed Kali on a virtual box. Pretty sure I aimed at making a multi platform mobile app to begin with.... Yep, from Kivy to changing Mac addresses, am I lost? Or this is the way to dive in?4
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Just remembered that I still had a foobar invite link in my email inbox 😋
The challenges are odd though, first challenge was super easy (basically an idiot check), but while I was able to convert 3 cans of energy drink into a functional solution in half an hour, the verification utility is not very verbose at all. So in Python 3.7.3 in my Debian box it worked just fine, yet the testing suite in Foobar was failing the whole time. After sending an email to my friend that gave the link (several years ago now, sorry about that! 😅) asking if he knew the problem, I found out that Google is still using Python 2.7.13 for some reason. Even Debian's Python is newer, at 2.7.16. To be fair it does still default to Python 2 too. But why.. why on Earth would you use Python 2.7 in a developer oriented set of challenges from a massive company, in 2020 when Python 2 has already been dead for almost a whole year?
But hey now that it's clear that it's Python 2.7, at least the next challenges should be a bit easier. Kind of my first time developing in SnekLang regardless actually, while the language doesn't have everything I'd expect (such as integer square root, at least not in Debian or the foobar challenge's interpreter), its math expressions are a lot cleaner than bash's (either expr or bc). So far I kinda like the language. 2-headed snake though and there's so much garbage for this language online, a lot more than there is for bash. I hate that. Half the stuff flat out doesn't work because it was written by someone who requires assistance to breathe.
Meh, here's to hoping that the next challenges will be smooth sailing :) after all most of the time spent on the first one (17.5 hours) was bottling up a solution for half an hour, tearing my hair out for a few hours on why Google's bloody verification tool wouldn't accept my functioning code (I wrote it for Python 3, assuming that that's what Google would be using), and 10 hours of sleep because no Google, I'm not scrubbing toilets for 48 hours. It's fair to warn people but no, I'm not gonna work for you as a cleaning lady! 😅
Other than the issues that the environment has, it's very fun to solve the challenges though. Fuck the theoretical questions with the whiteboard, all hiring processes should be like this!
1 -
Managing a small team - poorly.
I was in charge of testing a legacy calculations engine together with two scientists, for whom I set up a python and interop environment so they could test the engine easily.
The two were very excited at the thought of validating the calculations and in fact found many bugs.
I was very supportive, told them to fix the bugs and gave them a pet on the back.
All three of us were happy the legacy engine is shaping up, that's until my boss heard of it, and boy did he grill me hard for it.
Turns out our efforts were highly unappreciated by the client, whose only request was that we test the engine and report the bugs. Not to fix them. My goodwill cost the company a lot of money, since the client paid by the hour, and was now due a refund. Crap.
It took me a year to finally understood the moral of the story. Which is to always respect the client's wishes and convey maximum transparency to him. -
My ideal dev job, would be a job I can show compassion towards. A team I can be proud of and learn from. And a vibrant workspace with likeminded individuals who just want to improve themselves even if they feel their at their pinnacle.
My current office tries to make use of new technologies, we've embedded docker, vagrant, a few ci systems on an in need basis per team, and a lot of other tools.
My only real qualms are they feel indifferent towards new languages and eco systems ( Node.js, GoLang, etc ). Our web team is still using angular.js 1.x, bower, refuses to look into webpack or a new framework for our front end which is currently being bogged down by angulars dirty checking.
Our automated quality assurance team is forced to use Python for end to end testing, I've written an extensive package to make their lives easier including an entire JavaScript interface for dispatching events and properly interacting with custom DOMs outside of the scope of the official selenium bindings.
Our RESTful services are all using flask and Python, which become increasingly slow with our increase in services. I've pushed for the use of Node or GoLang with a GraphQL interface but I'm shot down consistently by our principle engineers who believe everything and anything must be written in Python.
I could go on, but tldr; I'm 21 and I have a ton of aspirations for web development. I'd like to believe I'm well rounded for my age, especially without any formal education. I'd love to be surrounded by individuals who want the same, to learn and architect the greatest platforms and services possible.1 -
My work product: Or why I learned to get twitchy around Java...
I maintain a Java based test system, that tests a raster image processor. The client is a Java swing project that contains CORBA bindings to the internal API of the raster image processor. It also has custom written UI elements and duplicated functionality that became available in later versions of Java, but because some of the third party tools we use don't work with later versions of Java for some reason, it's not possible to upgrade Java to gain things as simple as recursive directory deletion, yes the version of Java we have to use does not support something as simple as that and custom code had to be written to support it.
Because of the requirement to build the API bindings along with the client the whole application must be built with the raster image processor build chain, which is a heavily customised jam build system. So an ant task calls out to execute a jam task and jam does about 90% of the heavy lifting.
In addition to the Java code there's code for interpreting PostScript files, as these can be used to alter the behaviour of the raster image processor during testing.
As if that weren't enough, there's a beanshell interface to allow users to script the test system, but none of the users know Java well enough to feel confident writing interpreted Java scripts (and that's too close to JavaScript for my comfort). I once tried swapping this out for the Rhino JavaScript interpreter and got all the verbal support in the world but no developer time to design an API that'd work for all the departments.
The server isn't much better though. It's a tomcat based application that was written by someone who had never built a tomcat application before, or any web application for that matter and uses raw SQL strings instead of an orm, it doesn't use MVC in any way, and insane amount of functionality is dumped into the jsp files.
It too interacts with a raster image processor to create difference masks of the output, running PostScript as needed. It spawns off multiple threads and can spend days processing hundreds of gigabytes of image output (depending on the size of the tests).
We're stuck on Tomcat seven because we can't upgrade beyond Java 6, which brings a whole manner of security issues, but that eager little Java updated will break the tool chain if it gets its way.
Between these two components we have the Java RMI server (sometimes) working to help generate image data on the client side before all images are pulled across a UNC network path onto the server that processes test jobs (in PDF format), by reading into the xref table of said PDF, finding the embedded image data (for our server consumed test files are just flate encoded TIFF files wrapped around just enough PDF to make them valid) and uses a tool to create a difference mask of two images.
This tool is very error prone, it can't difference images of different sizes, colour spaces, orientations or pixel depths, but it's the best we have.
The tool is installed in both the client and server if the client can generate images it'll query from the server which ones it needs to and if it can't the server will use the tool itself.
Our shells have custom profiles for linking to a whole manner of third party tools and libraries, including a link to visual studio 2005 (more indirectly related build dependencies), the whole profile has to ensure that absolutely no operating system pollution gets into the shell, most of our apps are installed in our home directories and we have to ensure our paths are correct for every single application we add.
And... Fucking and!
Most of the tools are stored as source bundles in a version control system... Not got or mercurial, not perforce or svn, not even CVS... They use a custom built version control system that is built on top of RCS, it keeps a central database of locked files (using soft and hard locks along with write protecting the files in the file system) to ensure users can't get merge conflicts by preventing other users from writing to the files at all.
Branching is heavy weight and can take the best part of a day to create a new branch and populate the history.
Gathering the tools alone to build the Dev environment to build my project takes the best part of a week.
What should be a joy come hardware refresh year becomes a curse ("Well fuck, now I loose a week spending it setting up the Dev environment on ANOTHER machine").
Needless to say, I enjoy NOT working with Java. A lot of this isn't Javas fault, but there's a lot of things that Java (specifically the Java 6 version we're stuck on) does not make easy.
This is why I prefer to build my web apps in python or node, hell, I'd even take Lua... Just... Compiling web pages into executable Java classes, why? I mean I understand the implementation of how this happens, but why did my predecessor have to choose this? Why?2 -
!rant
is pre-debugging a good thing?
I have a habit of implementing a project(for e.g. a mobile app) like this: See the project, break the tasks to be done into small parts(Like UI layouts- setting, listeners to implement , graphics involved, background threads required, databases necessary, etc.)and then code each of them step by step , while simultaneously testing their working (For all possible test cases I could think of ) side - by side. this results in my project getting developed in far more time than other people, but I always have something good and working all times to show to my bosses.But I really feel stupid when I spend 2 hours handling the animations and ui while I have yet to look into databases and other more important stuff
I guess that's a habit from my good old python days(its IDLE was a playstation for me) but I wish to know better approaches,if any?4 -
Urgh.. the amount of things you have to know as a developer.. it can get stressful and frustrating sometimes when (in-depth) technology knowledge is demanded from you (for instance, for a job position)..
It's like being a doctor, being a lifelong student.
A few examples of what I had to know during my career:
Java, .NET, Python, PHP, JavaScript/HTML5/CSS3, Sass/Less, Node.js, ReactJS, AngularJS, Vue.js, Cordova, Ionic, Android, design patterns, SOLID, databases (design, implementation, administration, both NoSQL and relational,..), deployment tools (Octopus, Jenkins,..), VCS, CI/CD, HTTP, networking, security (OAuth2, CORS, XSS, CSRF,..), algebra, algorithms, software testing, profiling, Linux, Unix, Windows, MS Office (advanced mail filtering,..), ITIL, IT Law (licensing and its implications when choosing a product, distribution right,..), server architecture,..
Sure yeah, I know, I've studied all that at university but.. it's been too long (almost a decade now). I have to revisit that knowledge.5 -
If a team uses multiple languages and stacks (Have, JS, Python) do you think it's better to have everyone use/constantly switch between them or have dedicated developers for each language (ie. 80% main, 20% others)?
--END QUESTION, ANSWER NOW BEFOREHAND CONTINUING---
---BEGIN RANT---
My boss likes keeping the team "will rounded" so everyone does everything. One month in working in Java, the next with Node web apps. When I switch to node, it takes like a week of "wtf doesn't it work.... what changed, is it a big?" And usually end it"oh right I remember I need to ..."
And also always... "How the fuck do I write tests in {some reading framework} again?"
So feels like everyone is just a generalist and no one is a master/has time to develop mastery. I don't know if it's just me (1/3 Senior developers on the team that has to do everything) or if I'm the only one that complains... Not that it makes a difference... (Only option to really be heard is to resign but I need to somewhere else to work and finding one is hard for personal reasons)
And well this is the biggest reason I would leave the team. No time for mastery, no standardization/shared knowledge (everyone does their own thing but probably not well and no time for testing or documentation; how the fuck does whatever you wrote work, how do we use it, what the fuck did you put in prod that does ... And where the fuck did you put it cuz it's not in ANY of our repos).
I always feel one day soon it will come crashing down and I can say "I told you so" but will then it's too late and I'll be there one cleaning it up... Again6 -
so, I am trying to implement a caching solution for my CI/CD (because, you know, BitBucket CI caching sucks ass big time). This time I was writing a module in Python. I spent 2 evenings in the evening building it, debugging and testing, implementing several features making it a flexible solution.
So, yesterday I had a pretty much well working version. Before pushing changes I wanted to drop the cache and give it another round of testing, just to be sure I was pushing a truly working code. I rm-rf the cache directory, restart the engine and I'm greeted with an error message saying the module I was working on cannot be found.
wtf..?
Out of a sudden the IDE stopped showing all the project files as well.
wtf happened....?
oh, of course.. I rm-rf'ed my project directory, not the cache directory. Deleting EVERYTHING I had.
fuck.
I should not be working half-asleep4 -
may do an extreme rpi project…
is a self driving go kart or self flying drone cooler?
and for the drone, i think it would be easier, what do you guys think?
please answer - also for the drone, is there a way i could get it to connect from anywhere (within reason)? i know if it were a cell phone, i could get a signal from anywhere, but i don't want to pay for a monthly plan.4 -
Me debugging javascript, code testing go code and using python to make everything work together. My brain has started misspelling keywords and creating weird syntax.I get exhausted so quickly.
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someone brought something to school today, a "ac receiver" or "av receiver" or something? he pointed it at the board and turn it off, and i heard he opened someone's email with it? does anyone know what this could be?6
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This is the first time I have a bad PM and it's much worse than having a pain in the ass colleague dev. A bad dev will mess his/work project and maybe slow down 1-2 other devs.
But a bad PM will doom the whole project, wasting lots of time of the devs working under him/her. Costing much more company's money.
PM:This task should be ready by next week.
Me : This task will require X weeks time for developing and delivery
PM: What?! That's too long, it's a simple one, should be done in a few days.
Me: **explaining the challenges, limitation, env set up, testing etc. Also because I am a junior so may take more time than experienced dev**
PM: **insist that this is important blah blah**
Me: Understand your points but X days is just too little, I don't want you to blame me for missing the deadline. Either we get a reasonable deadline or you can get more experienced dev to do it faster.
**Knowing well that I have the most experience in this task and other devs are busy with their own tasks**
In the end I have to escalate this argument to more senior manager because both of us won't budge. Not only she agreed to extend the deadline she also assigned a senior dev to help me when I am stuck.
His other mistakes I noticed during my time working under him:
- not consulting senior dev for the approach to the task (thus we have to change the design twice).
- assigning tasks to people without sufficient background (a java dev is being assigned a python task, it's doable but it's going to be faster if we assign to someone with more python experience right?)
I understand that our company is short-staffed, but I begin to wonder if the stress the devs endure is because of that or because of his incompetence.
Next time, I am going to specifically ask not to work under him again.2 -
TLDR: Wrote a custom class for writing apibtest cases for a project with zero code test coverage.
We have a project with zero test coverage. Recently, i was tasked with writing api test cases for said project, it might have taken me months to write tests for all endpoint, plus the main issue was that each endpoint needed to tested for all available user roles and permissions.
I tried the main stream approach of writing api tests, but ended up running into a lot of issues directly linked to our projects roles/permissions architecture (cherry on top some endpoint are apikey specific). Don't get me wrong in my opinion this is by far one of the best user roles architecture out there, but writing test cases keeping it in mind is pain in ***.
After trying out different testing methods and frameworks, i decided to write my own class by extending django test framework (which uses unitest)
- It has generator and validators for request and response.
- Supports testing for user roles and permissions.
- We won't have to make any changes to code after user role or permissions changes
- I just have to copy and past request and responses from postman api collection.😂
1 -
That feeling when you're applying for your first programming job.
And the knife stabs of nerves in your gut fearfully remind the coiled muscles in your sweaty brow of the singular possibility: what if I bullshit my way by the HR filter into this job and it turns out I was completely wrong, and I encounter a bug that my meager coding abilities really can't fix?
"Writing an interpreter in some community college you dropped out of ten years ago" doesn't mean you're a programmer.
"Figuring out where the bug was in a broken bat file that was pages long, for a language and framework you've never used, for a library nobody uses anymore", doesn't count as debugging.
"Writing a tweening library in an obscure tool" doesn't mean you're an expert. This is childs play.
What if they ask about big O? Do you admit that logarithms confuse the fuck out of you because you dropped out in 8th grade and got your GED later on due to being kicked out by your meth head dad?
What if being able to write a few measly cobbled together half-arsed estimate tools in python doesn't really mean you're qualified to do anything?
What if being able to look at code in languages you've never seen and grok it doesn't mean shit?
What if you've used more languages than you can remember?
What if you once lost a job offer casually given because the guy you built rapport with over months made a joke about browsers, and you joked about using internet explorer?
What if you got a job offer from a consultant friend one time and he asked you to write validation and testing code in javascript for amazon's cloud, and you completely screwed the pooch because you spent the entire time thinking you had to make it *work* and not just *look* correct, when all along he just wanted what amounted to *correct looking* code, and your gut had told you the same, but you ignored it, because the world can't possibly work like that, where people give anyone a chance or the benefit of the doubt, and any slip up or shortcoming means you were never really worthy to begin with.
What if you thought you could, but you'd been raised your entire life to *believe* you couldn't?3 -
A year ago I built my first todo, not from a tutorial, but using basic libraries and nw.js, and doing basic dom manipulations.
It had drag n drop, icons, and basic saving and loading. And I was satisfied.
Since then I've been working odd jobs.
And today I've decided to stretch out a bit, and build a basic airtable clone, because I think I can.
And also because I hate anything without an offline option.
First thing I realized was I wasn't about to duplicate all the features of a spreadsheet from scratch. I'd need a base to work from.
I spent about an hour looking.
Core features needed would be trivial serialization or saving/loading.
Proper event support for when a cell, row, or column changed, or was selected. Necessary for triggering validation and serialization/saving.
Custom column types.
Embedding html in cells.
Reorderable columns
Optional but nice to have:
Changeable column width and row height.
Drag and drop on rows and columns.
Right click menu support out of the box.
After that hour I had a few I wanted to test.
And started looking at frameworks to support the SPA aspects.
Both mithril and riot have minimal router support. But theres also a ton of other leightweight frameworks and libraries worthy of prototyping in, solid, marko, svelte, etc.
I didn't want to futz with lots of overhead, babeling/gulping/grunting/webpacking or any complex configuration-over-convention.
Didn't care for dom vs shadow dom. Its a prototype not a startup.
And I didn't care to do it the "right way". Learning curve here was antithesis to experimenting. I was trying to get away from plugin, configuration-over-convention, astronaut architecture, monolithic frameworks, the works.
Could I import the library without five dozen dependancies and learning four different tools before getting to hello world?
"But if you know IJK then its quick to get started!", except I don't, so it won't. I didn't want that.
Could I get cheap component-oriented designs?
Was I managing complex state embedded in a monolith that took over the entire layout and conventions of my code, like the world balanced on the back of a turtle?
Did it obscure the dom and state, and the standard way of doing things or *compliment* those?
As for validation, theres a number of vanilla libraries, one of which treats validation similar to unit testing, which seems kinda novel.
For presentation and backend I could do NW.JS, which would remove some of the complications, by putting everything in one script. Or if I wanted to make it a web backend, and avoid writing it in something that ran like a potato strapped to a nuclear rocket (visual studio), I could skip TS and go with python and quart, an async variation of flask.
This has the advantage that using something thats *not* JS, namely python, for interacting with a proper database, and would allow self-hosting or putting it online so people can share data and access in real time with others.
And because I'm horrible, and do things the wrong way for convenience, I could use tailwind.
Because it pisses people off.
How easy (or hard) would it be to recreate a basic functional clone of the core of airtable?
I don't know, but I have feeling I'm going to find out!1 -
I wanted to get into programming since secondary school (at around age 14), and I started out with some very basic gamemaker stuff. Later I also started doing some C#, but I didn't have the patience or skill to create anything actually cool or useful. Then at age 18 I went to uni to pursue a cs degree, and that's when I actually properly learned how to program in C#, with a bit of Haskell, Python and C++. A little more than a year after that I got a job as a Java developer (with many many thanks to a friend of mine, @chappio). I already knew how to program but there I learned a lot more about good practices, quality control, testing and so on. Fast forward to now, 2 years later, and I'm almost done with my bachelor's degree (just a few more months) and I still work at the same company with much joy. Pursuing my dreams has worked out pretty well so far, let's hope it stays that way :)
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I starting developing my skills to a pro level from 1 year and half from now. My skillset is focused on Backend Development + Data Science(Specially Deep Learning), some sort of Machine Learning Engineer. I fill my github with personal projects the last 5 months, and im currently working on a very exciting project that involves all of my skills, its about Developing and deploy a Deep Learning Model for Image Deblurring.
I started to look for work two months to now. I applied to dozens of jobs at startups, no response. I changed my strategy a bit, focusing on early stage startups that dont have infinite money for pay all that senior devs, nothing, not even that startups wish to have me in their teams. I even applied to 2 or 3 and claim to do the job for little payment, arguing im not going for money but experience, nothing. I never got a reply back, not an interview, the few that reach back(like 3, from 3 or 4 dozen of startups), was just for say their are not interested on me.
This is frustrating, what i do on my days is just push forward my personal projects without rest. I will be broke in a few months from now if i dont get a job, im still young, i have 21 years, but i dont have economic support from parents anymore(they are already broke). Truly dont know what to do. Currently my brother is helping me with the money, but he will broke in few months as i say.
The worst of all this case is that i feel capable of get things done, i have skills and i trust in myself. This is not about me having doubts about my skills, but about startups that dont care, they are not interested in me, and the other worst thing is that my profile is in high demand, at least on startups, they always seek for backend devs with Machine Learning knowledge. Im nothing for them, i only want to land that first job, but seems to be impossible.
For add to this situation, im from south america, Venezuela, and im only able to get a remote job, because in my country basically has no Tech Industry, just Agencies everywhere underpaying devs, that as extent, dont care about my profile too!!! this is ridiculous, not even that almost dead Agencies that contract devs for very little payment in my country are interested in me! As extra, my economic situation dont allows me to reallocate, i simple cant afford that. planning to do it, but after land some job for a few months. Anyways coronavirus seems to finally set remote work as the default, maybe this is not a huge factor right now.
I try to find job as freelancer, i check the freelancer sites(Freelancer, Guru and so on) every week more or less, but at least from what i see, there is no Backend-Only gigs for Python Devs, They always ask for Fullstack developers, and Machine Learning gigs i dont even mention them.
Maybe im missing something obvious, but feel incredible that someone that has skills is not capable of land even a freelancer job. Maybe im blind, or maybe im asking too much(I feel the latter is not the case). Or maybe im overestimating my self? i think around that time to time, but is not possible, i have knowledge of Rest/GraphQL APIs Development using frameworks like Flask or DJango(But i like Flask more than DJango, i feel awesome with its microframework approach). Familiarized with containerization and Docker. I can mention knowledge about SQL and DBs(PostgreSQL), ORMs(SQLAlchemy), Open Auth, CI/CD, Unit Testing, Git, Soft DevOps Skills, Design Patterns like MVC or MTV, Serverless Environments, Deep Learning Solutions, end to end: Data Gathering, Preprocessing, Data Analysis, Model Architecture Design, Training and Finetunning. Im familiarized with SotA techniques widely used now days, GANs, Transformers, Residual Networks, U-Nets, Sequence Data, Image Data or high Dimensional Data, Data Augmentation, Regularization, Dropout, All kind of loss functions and Non Linear functions. My toolset is based around Python, with Tensorflow as the main framework, supported by other libraries like pandas, numpy and other Data Science oriented utils.
I know lot of stuff, is not that enough for get a Junior Level underpaid job? truly dont get it, what is required for get a job? not even enough for get an interview?
I have some dev friends and everyone seems to be able to land jobs, why im not landing even an interview?
I will keep pushing my Dev career, is that or starve to death. But i will love to read your suggestions! how i can approach this?
i will leave here my relevant social presence:
https://linkedin.com/in/...
https://github.com/ElPapi42
Thanks in advance!9 -
What the hell am I!? I wonder if you guys can help me...
I've been programming most of my life but I've never actually been a developer by title or job role. I thought maybe if I list what I do and have done someone here could help? I'm sure there are more of you in a similar boat.
- C# and VB dev for some quick DBMS projects to help me understand and mine databases and create a nice simple view for project teams to show findings from the data to help make certain decisions.
- Automating a lot of my colleagues work with Python and if very restricted then just VBA macros in Excel and MSP. This did also include creating tools to gather data during workshops and converting the data for input into other systems.
- Brought Linux to the office with most team members now moving over to Linux with the peace of mind to know that though they do need to try solve their own problems, I can help if need be.
- Had to learn AWS and then implement an autoscaling and load balanced data center installation of a few Atlassian toolsets.
- Creating the architecture diagrams documentation needed for things like the above point.
- Having said that, also have ended up setting up all the Jira/Confluence etc. servers we use and have implemented so far whether cloud (Azure/AWS) or on prem and set up scripts to automate where possible.
- Implemented an automated workflow view in SharePoint based on SP list data and though in an ASPX page, primarily built in JS.
- Building test systems in PHP/JS with Laravel and Angular to help manage integration between systems. Having quite a time right looking into how to build middleware to connect between SOAP and REST API's, the trouble caused more by the systems and their reliance on frameworks we're trying to cut out of the picture.
- Working on BI and MI and training a team to help on the report creation so that I can do the fun creative stuff and then set them to work on the detail :)
Actually it seems safe to say that it seems that though I've finally moved into a dev office (beforehand being the only developer around) I seem to be the one they go to when a strategic solution is needed ASAP and the normal processes can't be followed (fun for someone with a CompSci degree and a number of project management courses under the belt... though I honestly do enjoy the challenges)
But I always end up Jack of all but master of, well hopefully some at least. let's not even get started on the tech related hobbies from circuit design and IoT to Andoid / iOS and game dev and enjoying a bit of pen testing to make sure we're all safe at work and at home.
As much as I don't like boxes, I'm interested to know if there is in fact a box for me? By the way, the above is just a snapshot of my last two years minus the project management work...2 -
Scenario: Enabling yet another python test suite on vscode. No big deal.
I start the test init and discovery. Says it cant find the test files. Okay; usually the issue is there's no __init__.py in the test directory. It's okay we can fix that.
Oh wait it's still not working. Okay well this isnt good... After about an hour of searching, i finally find out that the file that vscode is discovering tests with doesnt exist... In fact the whole testing directory doesnt exist!
Okay so now what do i do... Reinstall? Doesnt work. Reinstall and delete the extension directory? Yes! Victory!
Dont know how i got a half-baked extension download but hey... Could've beem worse. -
Any automation engineers that use selenium + Python have any good suggestions on testing, resources or advice?2
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Anyone using nose2 as their primary unit testing framework?
If so, why do you prefer it over pytest? The nose2 homepage effective recommends pytest, so wondering about the future of nose2.2 -
I know this is too late to ask this question, but am a final year computer science student, average in all core subjects with 0 knowledge of web development (except a few html tags, but not enough to make a wikipedia like website) or other professional streams.
I know java and python enough to make oop classes and understand code written in them.
Should i
A)study more about web dev/ml-ai/testing/other "professional" stuff
B) learn more and strengthen my core subjects , like operating system, algorithms, data structures, etc or
C) learn another core language like C/c++/assembly?27 -
making a self driving go kart controlled with a rpi, should i use python, java, dart, or something else? python seems like the obvious choice.
i plan on making it have google maps integrated, with netflix and music player, with a touchscreen.
i was thinking c++, but a gui with c++ didn't seem ideal.
what would you use?
also is an rpi too slow to make the go kart be *relatively* safe?3 -
When one server request goes through and second one fails😥 and then you start contemplating life because the only thing that you thought will stick around with you till the end says ' Uncaught in Promise '!
-
Hi So I need some solid advice from you all wonderful people.
I think i am now ready to look into job side of this world, but have lots of doubts , read my story.
I have been learning android for last 2 years. Most of the time i have been trying to understand how stuff works in android , but i have also gained a few other skills ( python programming, kotlin/flutter basics data analysis basics, testing, some graphic designing, aweful web dev ,etc). But i really want to work with Android. I don't have any specific Salary figure in mind, but i guess my knowledge is better or atleast par with most of the good android developers.
So i want to know how is this fresher/placement thingy work?
1.) GETTING KNOWN? : How can i make some good android based company aware that I am available for hiring? Should i start emailing every android related company that i know of? Should i start listing my profile on recruitment sites like linkedin or internshala? This year it is being said that companies will come for placements. From the status of my college, they are going to give me way to less $ , nd i know am not going to like any of them, but i guess i have to sit for them too.
2.INTERVIEW OR DIRECT PLACEMENTS? A little pre-context: i am currently starting my 4th year in clg. Afaik , 4th year isnt that strict and their can be leniency in terms of attendance. But my college is a place full of political cun*s in the name of directors and HODs and I don't know if they are again going to enforce the old 75% mandatory criteria. Plus if the company is from a different state/country , then my attendance would definitely not suffice.
So mainly i am unsure if somehow a company hires me, i would be able to start immediately. I heard that there are interviews for job recruitment after which the candidate is binded with an agreement to do some months training followed by permanent working after college completion.
This type of agreement is very much suitable for me, since from what my friend tells me, trainings can be lenient and understanding regarding exam preparations nd stuff.
So what do company usually chooses? Binding a fresher on immediate working basis or do they consider graduate completion?
Also, i suck at competitive coding. Do i need to polish myself on that or some company is willing to give me chance on the basis of my other skills 🙈(okay, no kidding , that's a serious question. I need to either work on getting better in competitive or build more apps based on that)
3.) ANDROID OR EVERYTHING? From what i have heard, working as a professional fresher is more like being an allrounder than being a domain specialist. But as i already stated, i really dig android and that's no small framework. I may di other stuff too, but won't interest me nd my output might be less efficient than expected.
So freshers can really be asked to do any stuff? Or can i still be in the area i like being into?
4.) COMPANY OR START-UP? Yeah, this is a general debate starter. Ignoring the business side of the conversation ( job safety vs more salary, experience, etc) the thing that's most important for me is the presence of a team. I want someone to assign me a task, whose vision i could follow, from whom i could learn, and some other people who are supportive and doing the same amount / similar work that am doing . This is so much import8 for me that i can easily ignore other factors for a better team. I once took a call from a startup ceo who hired me, a 2 month old android beginner at that time, as the "lead android developer"
But if am being on a team where i am supposed to do any random stuff that is assigned, then obviously this whole point of "visionary, helpful leader, guiding team, "etc goes moot9 -
So I'm trying to see if Python adds language features that are easier to use in Linux for quick purposes like converting a raster to sectional image files and compressing them.
Trying to make this multi platform.
So the question then becomes, since I have a testing build location so as not to fuck up my host system, how do I point PyCharm to the python bindings AND the installed lib in its custom location ?
See this kind of setup information is something that would make getting started with things like this much easier and quicker.
Can't tell me there isn't a purpose for this. This seems like a reasonable use-case.9
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